VVV: The Return of ZiGZaG (VerTex³ on PIU PRO)

[Turkeyslam]

Originally Posted by Kilroy-Sucks

VVV may not be fun or pleasing by conventional standards, but it's completely necessary given the current state of music games. All of it turns and is doable on foot (except for the one hand in the chart, dur hur), and I certainly don't see how it could be worse than Bemera. I mean, how is 3 and a half minutes of 16ths (on opposite sides of the pads on NM, no less) so much better than 2 minutes of BPM gimmicks and a collection of awkward turns in the ending?

Also good job to everyone that hates on an entire game because of two or three charts in it. Bonus points for those of you who haven't even played the damn thing.

Completely necessary? Sorry, but no. It's possible to have something as difficult, or more difficult, than VVV, while maintaining a sense of flow and not being a completely horrendous piece of trash. Pump's done it, ITG's done it, DDR's done it, and even Pro itself has freaking done it outside of that chart.

The reason so many people think VVV is bad is NOT because of its difficulty. It's because it's unpleasant and unplayable. It has no flow and doesn't even qualify as music. VVV is as melodic as an Anal Cunt song. There's no excuse for it.

I've downloaded Pro and played through the vast majority of it. I can see how people like it, but the whole game reeks of Kyle Ward. If you dislike that one specific type of music, there goes your enjoyment of pretty much the rest of the music in the game. And no, going by 83 aliases doesn't change anything. As for the charts, well... TECHNICALLY they match the songs, yes, but they have no style, rhythm, or fluidity. It's so unbearably technical that it only caters to those "AAA" players (which, to be fair, is exactly the ITG/Pro playerbase). Appealing to some? Definitely. Appealing to the vast majority of players? Shit no. It's 5x more of a niche game than regular Pump is.

[Sally Shears]

Originally Posted by Turkeyslam

unplayable.

Tell that to all of the people that have passed it.

It has no flow and doesn't even qualify as music. VVV is as melodic as an Anal Cunt song. There's no excuse for it.

Is the artist's job to justify themselves to you?

Sure, there are hard songs that have "flow". There are a lot of them. The fact that you're complaining about this one specific song for violating your cardinal rule of whatever demonstrates its novelty in contrast to a sea of identical creations. Maybe you really like all of that though, and that's fine. You can like whatever charts you choose for whatever misguided reasons you invent. Know what I like? I like the songs that people like you complain about. Oh sure, I probably wouldn't think it was so cute if every song in a game followed the conventions of VVV. Boy howdy though, it sure is a lot of fun seeing your perfect little world shattered by one thing that doesn't fit your mold.

Oh and yeah, obviously Ward's presence dominates Pro, considering less than a third of the song list is new content and everything else is from classic Andamiro pump. Now go back to Pump Haven and preach to your disciples about how timing windows are the devil and Kilroy is ruining the game.

[Turkeyslam]

Originally Posted by Kilroy-Sucks

Tell that to all of the people that have passed it.

That's not what I meant. I assumed you would figure out what I meant considering I mentioned how this song WASN'T all that hard and that there were harder songs elsewhere. Note if you haven't picked it up yet: I AM NOT COMPLAINING BECAUSE IT IS HARD. If you C400 it, many expert players would even find it to be easy.

Originally Posted by Kilroy-Sucks

Is the artist's job to justify themselves to you?

Sure, there are hard songs that have "flow". There are a lot of them. The fact that you're complaining about this one specific song for violating your cardinal rule of whatever demonstrates its novelty in contrast to a sea of identical creations. Maybe you really like all of that though, and that's fine. You can like whatever charts you choose for whatever misguided reasons you invent. Know what I like? I like the songs that people like you complain about. Oh sure, I probably wouldn't think it was so cute if every song in a game followed the conventions of VVV. Boy howdy though, it sure is a lot of fun seeing your perfect little world shattered by one thing that doesn't fit your mold.

Oh and yeah, obviously Ward's presence dominates Pro, considering less than a third of the song list is new content and everything else is from classic Andamiro pump.

Uhhhhh... the entire point of Pro is the new songs. Pro fans like Pro songs. People don't go across town to play Pro because they want to play Moonlight with rhythm arrows on a Stepmania-like interface and a tighter timing window. The ITG style is the ENTIRE point of the game and the old Pump songs are only included as filler so that it can still justifiably be called a "Pump It Up" title, which it's not.

I've played nearly all of the Pro songs, AKA those that are not from Pump mixes. There are a few that I find decent, but nearly every single one of them has the feel of a technical chart. There's way too many awkward jumps, steps following unusual things in the background, uncomfortable holds and slaps, etc etc etc. Granted, if you're an ITG/Pro player, you probably like this style (or even prefer it) and are used to it, but it's quite evident that lulling in the existing Pump fanbase has miserably backfired. It's not that the steps are objectively "bad", it's that they are simply not Pump. It's something else.

Even when the Pro forums were at its peak, the community there consisted of completely different people from PH/Piugame/Bemanistyle/etc. This should be saying something about Pro's success in being considered a Pump product. The segregation between the communities was about the same as in Rosa Parks's bus.

And as for hating on anything that isn't Pump... get the HELL out with that. I've supported ITG and DDR and everything else out there. I hated on Pro for so long because of it sinking its teeth into the sales of NX and NX2 by replacing existing machines and tricking arcade owners into thinking they're upgrading to the "latest Pump mix". I took Pro's entry into the market the same way DDR players took that MegaMix thing when Extreme was around. Now that the game's sinked into irrelevance in the market, this one issue doesn't bother me anymore. I'll put up with charts like Oasis or Aliens in the Midst or Y2Z or whatever because they do their own thing. That's fine - although I'd prefer they stay true to their roots and remain four panel. However, VVV is INEXCUSABLE AND AWFUL. The steps look like they were made by some spastic kid who forgot to take his adderall this month. I find it so hard to believe that Jason Dread was responsible for those charts, because everything I've seen that he's made in the past is excellent. A shame.

Originally Posted by Kilroy-Sucks

Now go back to Pump Haven and preach to your disciples about how timing windows are the devil and Kilroy is ruining the game

Oh get the hell out with this ad hominem attack bullshit. I never said that timing windows are the devil and I don't even know who the hell you are. Be relevant in your arguments.

[Sally Shears]

Originally Posted by Turkeyslam

If you C400 it, many expert players would even find it to be easy.

C400 disables score. Whatever it is you're trying to say is apparently far too abstract for me to grasp. It's obviously playable. It's possible this part of your argument is just a redundant way of expressing an earlier sentiment.

People don't go across town to play Pro because they want to play Moonlight with rhythm arrows on a Stepmania-like interface and a tighter timing window.

I do.

It's not that the steps are objectively "bad", it's that they are simply not Pump. It's something else.

You're playing a silly game here. Do you want to name specific charts and then have me name a chart from classic pump that has the exact same pattern or convention, ad infinitum, or do you just want to drop this now?

Even when the Pro forums were at its peak, the community there consisted of completely different people from PH/Piugame/Bemanistyle/etc. This should be saying something about Pro's success in being considered a Pump product. The segregation between the communities was about the same as in Rosa Parks's bus.

Ignoring the terrible, terrible phrasing there, I'm going to have to ask what possible significance any community has as a reflection of the quality of the actual games themselves.

And as for hating on anything that isn't Pump... get the HELL out with that. I've supported ITG and DDR and everything else out there.

Just not the players, apparently, because they like ITG and Pro or whatever? I'm not sure I follow.

I hated on Pro for so long because of it sinking its teeth into the sales of NX and NX2 by replacing existing machines and tricking arcade owners into thinking they're upgrading to the "latest Pump mix".

Is that why? I thought it was because the charts were too technical and you hated the music, and it didn't feel Korean, and its focus was too much on accuracy which took away from the fun of the game for you, and a billion other things.

You need to realize that I've read things you've written prior to this thread. My reaction isn't just to what you've posted here.

At any rate, fine, I guess we'll add that to the list. Why hate specifically on Pro more so than any other competing product? DDR? ITG? Stepping 3 superior? You're basically arguing that because of the name arcade owners will get confused. Would you honestly not hate Pro if they changed the name? Isn't this really a problem of arcade owners not understanding the demands of their customers, and not a problem with the game itself?

I took Pro's entry into the market the same way DDR players took that MegaMix thing when Extreme was around.

MegaMix was a bootleg mix without original content. That's a bad comparison by about a mile and a half.

However, VVV is INEXCUSABLE AND AWFUL.

I didn't realize it was asking for your permission.

I find it so hard to believe that Jason Dread was responsible for those charts, because everything I've seen that he's made in the past is excellent. A shame.

VVV is excellent. You just don't like it.

[Turkeyslam]

Originally Posted by Kilroy-Sucks

C400 disables score. Whatever it is you're trying to say is apparently far too abstract for me to grasp. It's obviously playable. It's possible this part of your argument is just a redundant way of expressing an earlier sentiment.

You still don't get what I meant by unplayable. I'm not going to try to explain it further.

I do.

You're an extreme minority. Note that in all my collective statements I'm talking about the majority of players, not just you.

You're playing a silly game here. Do you w[ant to name specific charts and then have me name a chart from classic pump that has the exact same pattern or convention, ad infinitum, or do you just want to drop this now?

"or do you want to drop this now"? Do you think I care enough to continuously exchange this many posts with some nobody on the internet? I'm not going to respond to anything you say if you use such a dumb method of getting your point across. Anyway, I'm talking about the collective feel from all the charts combined. I've played them. I've made my consensus. Your opinion is irrelevant here because all I'm doing is giving my own.

Ignoring the terrible, terrible phrasing there, I'm going to have to ask what possible significance any community has as a reflection of the quality of the actual games themselves.

The community = the fanbase. The fanbase = the market. The market = the sales. The sales = the profits. The profits = the series' life support. Think about it for a second. They're the reason the game exists and gets played.

Is that why? I thought it was because the charts were too technical and you hated the music, and it didn't feel Korean, and its focus was too much on accuracy which took away from the fun of the game for you, and a billion other things.

That's two completely separate things. Just because a game doesn't appeal to me doesn't mean I don't support it. I thought ITG's music was garbage but I -SUPPORTED- it by never speaking negatively about it. It was a new endeavor by the players. The game satisfied its niche.

Of course I hate Pro due to the aforementioned reasons. I just wouldn't be bashing it so much if the side effects of its existence, you know, didn't damage and directly affect the sales of a game that only pushes several dozen kits in this country per year. In several trade shows, Pro was there but NX/NX2 were not, as Andamiro felt that Pro was sufficient. That is unacceptable.

I refuse to give such a game any positive PR.

You need to realize that I've read things you've written prior to this thread. My reaction isn't just to what you've posted here.

You need to realize that the things I've written prior to this thread were complaints that are irrelevant to this discussion - one that you've already thrown on a huge tangent to try and defend VVV when someone came and disagreed with a statement you made.

At any rate, fine, I guess we'll add that to the list. Why hate specifically on Pro more so than any other competing product? DDR? ITG? Stepping 3 superior? You're basically arguing that because of the name arcade owners will get confused. Would you honestly not hate Pro if they changed the name? Isn't this really a problem of arcade owners not understanding the demands of their customers, and not a problem with the game itself?

click

I'm definitely not typing that again.

MegaMix was a bootleg mix without original content. That's a bad comparison by about a mile and a half.

Congratulations on misunderstanding my analogy. It wasn't a comparison.

I didn't realize it was asking for your permission.

You weren't. You were getting my opinion. Sharing opinions, rather than circlejerking around a single opinion, is why message boards exist.

VVV is excellent. You just don't like it.

My subjective opinion has just been knocked down by your objective analysis. Holy shit.

See, if you'd stop filtering out anything that wasn't a "Pro player" comment or a "Turkeyslam" comment, you'd see comments like these (which appear to resemble the majority of the responses from people who aren't regulars in Kyle Wardville):

I'll agree with what the guy says at 1:43. "It's so stupid". :|

Song and steps are terrible.

That is why I stopped playing ITG and don't even want to bother with PRO.

Putrid.

V^3's CZ and NM chart... are garbage charts. There are better charts in PIU regular as well as the other Pro exclusives, thank goodness.

Terrible song, terrible chart.

Pass.

That's the majority of this thread. And then, if we go to Youtube, and check out the FIRST TWO videos of VVV that came out (for the Crazy and for the Nightmare)....

"It's so stupid!"

"Holy shit! What was that?" "That was STUPID." "Yes it was!"

And the YouTube comments of those videos...

I cant Believe Jason Dread sold his soul to the devil and created this .__.

Most retarded stepchart ever made?

that looked like someone shit on a fucking paint brush and flung it on a canvas....... no fucking way.... song sounds cool but honestly....... thats shit on a canvas..... tryign to be made into somethign pretty....

The saddest thing about this load of diarrhea is that it's actually a serious chart and they're expecting you to really try and not only pass it, but score as well as you possibly can on it. Nobody can possibly have fun doing that.

etc etc etc etc etc

And the best part? You can't use the "Pump Haven brigade" argument, because 95% of the people who made these comments don't even post there.

If you can still say that this is objectively a good song, then you need to turn around and take Ward's cock out of your ass. Most of the world doesn't appear to agree with you.

Respond to this thread as you will. I regret the 15 more minutes I've spent typing in this otherwise dead thread. I'm done.

[Kyosuke Kagami]

Now I'm happy to see that Pro was never available here (lack of interest, also ).

[Sally Shears]

Originally Posted by Turkeyslam

You still don't get what I meant by unplayable. I'm not going to try to explain it further.

Of course not. You're going to post gibberish and belligerently pretend it makes sense.

You're an extreme minority.

You know this from extensive research about the Pro demographic?

Note that in all my collective statements I'm talking about the majority of players, not just you.

You're talking out of your ass.

"or do you want to drop this now"? Do you think I care enough to continuously exchange this many posts with some nobody on the internet? I'm not going to respond to anything you say if you use such a dumb method of getting your point across.

A winning method?

Anyway, I'm talking about the collective feel from all the charts combined. I've played them. I've made my consensus. Your opinion is irrelevant here because all I'm doing is giving my own.

Ok, so you're giving yourself permission to talk out of your ass. Well at least you're being honest now.

The community = the fanbase. The fanbase = the market. The market = the sales. The sales = the profits. The profits = the series' life support. Think about it for a second. They're the reason the game exists and gets played.

You're right, but you're still dodging the question. What do the people who support the game have to do with the quality of the game itself? You're arguing that Pro sucks because it appeals to ITG players. That's one of your arguments. What do the players have to do with the quality of the game?

Of course I hate Pro due to the aforementioned reasons. I just wouldn't be bashing it so much if the side effects of its existence, you know, didn't damage and directly affect the sales of a game that only pushes several dozen kits in this country per year. In several trade shows, Pro was there but NX/NX2 were not, as Andamiro felt that Pro was sufficient. That is unacceptable.

I refuse to give such a game any positive PR.

So if I'm reading you correctly, now you hate Pro mostly because of the way it's being marketed. That sounds like something you need to take up with Andamiro and Fun in Motion themselves.

You need to realize that the things I've written prior to this thread were complaints that are irrelevant to this discussion - one that you've already thrown on a huge tangent to try and defend VVV when someone came and disagreed with a statement you made.

Directly defending an opinion about the thread's subject is tangential? That's interesting. I'm not so sure that I should take your word for what is and isn't relevant.

click

I'm definitely not typing that again.

It's funny how you say the earlier things you've written are irrelevent to the discussion and then literally post the exact one most of my impressions of you came from.

Congratulations on misunderstanding my analogy. It wasn't a comparison.

Whatever you choose to call it, it isn't substantive.

You weren't. You were getting my opinion. Sharing opinions, rather than circlejerking around a single opinion, is why message boards exist.

Then yours seems to have gone horribly wrong. OH SNAP.

Seriously though, you go from some weird majority-rules-dance-games rhetoric to this? Who's supposed to be in this circle jerk? Me? Isn't that called masturbation? I think we should reserve the term "circle-jerk" for the person who represents the majority opinion (that would be, uh, you).

See, if you'd stop filtering out anything that wasn't a "Pro player" comment or a "Turkeyslam" comment, you'd see comments like these

:insert comments:

My subjective opinion has just been knocked down by your collective objective analysis. Holy shit.

If you can still say that this is objectively a good song, then you need to turn around and take Ward's cock out of your ass. Most of the world doesn't appear to agree with you.

I don't recall ever bringing the issue of objectivity into this, I just claimed it was good. Or am I not allowed to hold differences in opinion? Subjectivity does not imply impermeability however. I have damn good reason for liking the song and charts. I think it's an incredibly neat trick to see a chart that can play a man.

And the best part? You can't use the "Pump Haven brigade" argument, because 95% of the people who made these comments don't even post there.

Why does that matter again? Oh right, because you think the difference between a good opinion and a bad one is whether you're in the majority or not.

I'm done.

If only that were true.

[Turkeyslam]

Alright, you're throwing this way too off course. I'll let you keep the final word so you'll have something to masturbate to tonight.

Pro is an old topic that is neither a threat nor a concern to me anymore. That was in 2007. So it's okay. Go enjoy your VVV.