DJmax Trilogy Bugs!!!

[xat]

Originally Posted by Eminef

Well put!

I'm not an uber pro maxing the scores out and im not a noob just mashing the keys, im just an average player that dont see the point in an auto correction feature in a game like this, the whole point is to learn and correct yourself if you break not to have the game auto correct it for you!

Thats what i dislike!

And I'm saying you really won't notice it at higher levels of play. Think about it this way: when you know the auto correct system has kicked in, you know for sure that you have messed up and that further refinement is required. The only difference is that instead of saying "damn I pressed the wrong key" it's "damn, good thing the auto correct system helped me where I messed up."

For beginners it's a wonderfully forgiving system that may motivate them to persevere, since at the very least they know their timing is right.

For average players it's the equivalent of what "auto" is for higher level players that make the occasional stupid mistake.

And for high level players, it's practically non-existent.

I hope that gives you some insight.

[slayerr2314]

Originally Posted by Yuki Ijuin

Can you please try replaying DJMAX P1 and P2? Thanks.

Portable 1 DOES have a larger 100% window...

[kesadisan]

if you check the accuracy actually the accuracy is divided by 2 if you press the wrong key but in the right rhyme

[Ratix0]

Originally Posted by xat

And I'm saying you really won't notice it at higher levels of play. Think about it this way: when you know the auto correct system has kicked in, you know for sure that you have messed up and that further refinement is required. The only difference is that instead of saying "damn I pressed the wrong key" it's "damn, good thing the auto correct system helped me where I messed up."

For beginners it's a wonderfully forgiving system that may motivate them to persevere, since at the very least they know their timing is right.

For average players it's the equivalent of what "auto" is for higher level players that make the occasional stupid mistake.

And for high level players, it's practically non-existent.

I hope that gives you some insight.

Bullshit. Only for noob beginners who doesn't want to improve will they embrace the system.

heck, with autocorrect, I can hardly tell what button went wrong for higher level songs because they are simply corrected. As such, how do I correct myself to make myself not make the mistake again?

P.S. I am a noob with keyboard music games. And its very annoying because many a times I can't press properly on the keyboard but the auto correct corrects it for me BUT I can't tell what exactly did I press wrong. Because I am not experienced with music games on keyboard. So how is it a good newbie friendly feature when it does not promote improvement for newbies?

[xat]

Originally Posted by Ratix0

Bullshit. Only for noob beginners who doesn't want to improve will they embrace the system.

heck, with autocorrect, I can hardly tell what button went wrong for higher level songs because they are simply corrected. As such, how do I correct myself to make myself not make the mistake again?

P.S. I am a noob with keyboard music games. And its very annoying because many a times I can't press properly on the keyboard but the auto correct corrects it for me BUT I can't tell what exactly did I press wrong. Because I am not experienced with music games on keyboard. So how is it a good newbie friendly feature when it does not promote improvement for newbies?

Noob beginners will improve naturally. This isn't a matter of "embracing the system." For truly new players, that IS the system. Yes, it can be abused, but obviously doing so won't lead to any progression. The ability to hit the right notes will become intuitive for new players over time anyway.

Fine, you can hardly tell which button went wrong. That doesn't matter. The fact is, you know you hit the wrong key. As you progress what "feels right" will become synonymous with what IS right - the system will not stunt that progression, it'll only be a safety net during the times you do make a mistake. For new players this is a lot more forgiving than a break.

[fkusumot]

Jeeze Louise, this auto-correct thing seems to be as contentious as "Wii Fit".

OMG, auto-correct is destroying traditional music gaming as we know it!

It's made for the casuals, the hardcore are being marginalized in favor of trying to expand the audience!

[Yuki Ijuin]

This is hilarious. People complaining a feature that you won't even notice unless you abuse it.

What xat said is correct, as long as you know you're wrong, that is enough. You don't need your teacher to point out there's a typo in your homework, she/he just needs to circle the word in question.

Fever gained from this autocorrection is full, the accuracy are not detracted from the note, but the score is.

[Hypr]

Originally Posted by fkusumot

Jeeze Louise, this auto-correct thing seems to be as contentious as "Wii Fit".

OMG, auto-correct is destroying traditional music gaming as we know it!

It's made for the casuals, the hardcore are being marginalized in favor of trying to expand the audience!

Yet the auto-correct feature is in Black Square, a game made for hardcore players.

And no, don't even say that Black Square game is made for casual players either (Fever game for casuals however, yes); the 'casual players' will have a bitching time on Club Tour trying to get some items/songs* unlocked just to get slammed by ridiculous requirements (like getting Fever x8 or 97% accuracy) in Mission battles.

* Link Disc with Clazziquai is the alternative way of unlocking songs, but if they don't have Clazziquai Edition, they're screwed.

[katgirlfeli]

I can see what Eminef is saying x.o

I myself wouldn't want the same to auto correct for me either (say i press a key incorrectly, but time it right, it'll give me points anyway). If i miss by pressing the wrong key, then i want to miss.

In the end, i agree with everyone else. If you're playing it right anyway (as most experienced players will, its more of an accuracy thing than a button press thing once you're really good), its not going to affect you anyway, but i could see winning when i clearly made mistakes in keypresses could irk me at times when i want to be a perfectionist and would rather take a miss than a "oops, that's ok, i'll give it to you anyway just for timing it right", even if its rare and only once during a song x.o Just lemme keep the miss i earned

I'll still love the game regardless though XD

Does it penalize your score when it autocorrects or at least worth less?

[Solefald]

The timing window is more strict for autocorrected notes.

[xat]

Originally Posted by katgirlfeli

I can see what Eminef is saying x.o

I myself wouldn't want the same to auto correct for me either (say i press a key incorrectly, but time it right, it'll give me points anyway). If i miss by pressing the wrong key, then i want to miss.

In the end, i agree with everyone else. If you're playing it right anyway (as most experienced players will, its more of an accuracy thing than a button press thing once you're really good), its not going to affect you anyway, but i could see winning when i clearly made mistakes in keypresses could irk me at times when i want to be a perfectionist and would rather take a miss than a "oops, that's ok, i'll give it to you anyway just for timing it right", even if its rare and only once during a song x.o Just lemme keep the miss i earned

I'll still love the game regardless though XD

Does it penalize your score when it autocorrects or at least worth less?

Auto-corrected notes are less in value, so the game isn't simply giving you a free 100%. The system won't prevent your perfectionist ways because when it has to kick in, you're not being perfect by definition.

[Hypr]

Originally Posted by xat

Noob beginners will improve naturally. This isn't a matter of "embracing the system." For truly new players, that IS the system. Yes, it can be abused, but obviously doing so won't lead to any progression. The ability to hit the right notes will become intuitive for new players over time anyway.

I just want to point out a flaw with this post. The fact is the involvement of the auto-correct system in any game won't lead to any progression in terms of playing DJ Max properly, period.

Say a new player starts with DJ Max Fever, a game with auto-correct. It doesn't matter if that player notices that auto-correct system in effect; what does matter is that player is being trained under the auto-correct environment, and in the end, will only be "good" with that auto-correct environment.

So, how can such a player measure his/her true abilities? Simple, let them play another DJ Max title where no auto-correct system exists (Portable 1, Portable 2, Clazziquai), but let's give that player Clazziquai Edition since it is SOOO beginner friendly (ha ha ha!) He/she might do well on the low-level songs, but after months of Fever, that player may be feeling a little cocky and will take on "Clear Blue Sky" for 6-button mode (Level 11 chart by the way.) He/she attempts that song and fails it since all those notes that should have been auto-corrected counted against him/her as misses instead. As a result, that player will become mislead to think that chart is somehow harder than Fever's difficult charts (ha ha ha!)

Originally Posted by xat

Fine, you can hardly tell which button went wrong. That doesn't matter. The fact is, you know you hit the wrong key. As you progress what "feels right" will become synonymous with what IS right - the system will not stunt that progression, it'll only be a safety net during the times you do make a mistake. For new players this is a lot more forgiving than a break.

I disagree with this portion entirely. Plus, your second sentence contradicted the previous. Many players that are learning to play DJ Max with auto-correct WILL NOT KNOW when they have hit the wrong button. The reason? The beginning players are only learning to time the keypresses, but not pressing the correct key corresponding to the note. In other words, their hand-eye coordination development for DJ Max (under auto-correct) is null; only a cruel BREAK or MISS with a combo reset to zero can help players in that aspect.

I've started off with O2Jam which was not-so-beginner friendly and I learned everything the hard way. Did the learning process suck? Yup, it sure did, but in the end, it payed off as I was able to start jamming 12s through 15s by the end of that month. Speaking of O2Jam, you know what that game has that DJ Max Trilogy and Fever didn't have? A tutorial session (yeah, Clazziquai Edition had that too) which helps beginning players get familiar with the basic mechanics of the game.

Music games fail to cater to beginners properly, and even though the forgiving auto-correct system was an attempt with good intentions to help beginning players, it inadvertently inhibits players' development of abilities in music games as well. What makes it a greater sin is that feature can't be turned off, but that's beside the point. Here's what both Trilogy and Fever should have done: include a tutorial session, and a tutorial mode. For the tutorial mode, it should allow the beginning player to pick any chart, first starting with easy in one set, and then ramp the difficulty up or down gradually depending on the player's performance. In this mode, there can be some visual aid or cue to tell the player which key to hit, and WHEN to press it. Breaks/misses will still count even if the player hits the wrong key, but players can't fail the song in this mode. Music games that follow this suit will help ALL players whether they are beginners or experts.

[xat]

I'm not saying the auto correction system will lead to progression. It's not meant to help players get better, it's there so that players aren't deterred to the point of giving up.

Have a little more faith in players. Unless they're mashing 100% of the time, hitting the right keys will become natural to them, and they will recognize when they have hit the wrong key. This very thread is some new player's anecdote to him noticing the system in the first place. There's no contradiction to what I said when it was a direct response to someone who was talking about their experience. You're the one applying it generally.

[Hypr]

Originally Posted by xat

Have a little more faith in players. Unless they're mashing 100% of the time, hitting the right keys will become natural to them, and they will recognize when they have hit the wrong key. This very thread is some new player's anecdote to him noticing the system in the first place. There's no contradiction to what I said when it was a direct response to someone who was talking about their experience. You're the one applying it generally.

I'm sorry, but you've missed my point. As I have stated before, if a player has been playing under auto-correct conditions only, that player won't be making any progression in terms of playing the game properly. And unfortunately, "hitting the right keys will" not "become natural to them" at least 100%. It doesn't even matter if the player recognizes if he/she hits the wrong key. Case-in-point, have that player who has only played under the auto-correct system transition to another game with no auto-correct system; that player will find him/herself confused by receiving more missed notes on charts than he/she would normally get under auto-correct.

Now, if what you say is true regarding "hitting the right key becoming natural to them", then any player should be able to transition away from the auto-correct system and receive about the same scores and ratings as well as missed notes. That is, if a player can pull a 95% with 2 breaks on 'Another Day' on Fever, he/she should be able to do about as well on the same song and chart in Portable 2 (if the charts are exactly the same and assuming the timing windows didn't differ between the two games.)

[xat]

Originally Posted by Hypr

I'm sorry, but you've missed my point. As I have stated before, if a player has been playing under auto-correct conditions only, that player won't be making any progression in terms of playing the game properly. And unfortunately, "hitting the right keys will" not "become natural to them" at least 100%. It doesn't even matter if the player recognizes if he/she hits the wrong key. Case-in-point, have that player who has only played under the auto-correct system transition to another game with no auto-correct system; that player will find him/herself confused by receiving more missed notes on charts than he/she would normally get under auto-correct.

Now, if what you say is true regarding "hitting the right key becoming natural to them", then any player should be able to transition away from the auto-correct system and receive about the same scores and ratings as well as missed notes. That is, if a player can pull a 95% with 2 breaks on 'Another Day' on Fever, he/she should be able to do about as well on the same song and chart in Portable 2 (if the charts are exactly the same and assuming the timing windows didn't differ between the two games.)

I haven't missed your point. I'm outright refuting it because, unless players are absolutely clueless, they will be able to see for themselves that a column won't correspond to what they're pressing, which is exactly what the anecdote of this thread talks about. Again, unless they're mashing 100% of the time, they WILL progress with no hindrance by the system. It's not coming from me, it's from the new players who complained about the system in the first place. Do you need another personal account to see what I mean? You're making it sound like players brought up under the auto correct system will be overly dependent on it, when that isn't the case.