DJmax Trilogy Bugs!!!

[katgirlfeli]

Originally Posted by xat

Auto-corrected notes are less in value, so the game isn't simply giving you a free 100%. The system won't prevent your perfectionist ways because when it has to kick in, you're not being perfect by definition.

lol i guess you're right about that... I'd still want a choice if i want freebies or not, but it wont be that big a deal i'm sure. In fact, it may piss me off trying to complete something that requires a large combo to unlock something only to mess it up with a missed hit, so i guess that could be a saving grace if anything.

I got the game today, and it came in a sexy box too. Unfortunately, I had to go to work too, so i'm working atm with the game sitting at home waiting for me.

[Hypr]

Originally Posted by xat

I haven't missed your point. I'm outright refuting it because, unless players are absolutely clueless, they will be able to see for themselves that a column won't correspond to what they're pressing, which is exactly what the anecdote of this thread talks about. Again, unless they're mashing 100% of the time, they WILL progress with no hindrance by the system.

That depends on how you define progress. Fine, the way I define progress is more broad, which is if they develop their skills in DJ Max Trilogy, they should be able to do well on similar music games on the same platform (such as O2Jam for PC.) But if you are strictly talking about progress ONLY IN TRILOGY, then yes, they will make progress only for that game. But the minute those Trilogy players move onto other music games and try tackling difficult charts, they will notice significant difference in their performance with the absence of the auto-correct system.

The fact is the auto-correct system creeps into your performance whether you like it or not, and that is especially true if you play difficult charts which have high note density.

Originally Posted by xat

It's not coming from me, it's from the new players who complained about the system in the first place. Do you need another personal account to see what I mean? You're making it sound like players brought up under the auto correct system will be overly dependent on it, when that isn't the case.

I want you to go ahead and cite your personal experience. I sincerely hope you can prove me wrong in regard of this auto-correct issue. By the way, do you own any DJ MAX portable titles? If you have either Fever or Black Square, plus either Portable 2, or Clazziquai, I have an experiment for you to try out on yourself: play Fever or Black Square for one to two weeks straight on the most difficult charts you can do really well on. Keep track of your breaks. After that, move on to Clazziquai or Portable 2 and play charts that are similar to the difficulty level that you played on Black Square or Fever just for one day. Record the breaks you received and then compare how you did on Fever or Black Square.

[Yuki Ijuin]

Me and Xat both play IIDX, so prolly we can't give you personal anecdotes on this. Taking note of the system however, we both believe that it will not hinder your progress in beatgames, regardless of whether it has an autocorrection system. Because the main focus of beatgames aren't pressing at the right timing, but on the right key, regardless of autocorrection or without, with it you can only go so far before you're slapped awake realizing it doesn't work at higher difficulties. It makes the transition from casual to good that much easier.

I have DJMAXP1 and P2, as well as tested CE and BS with an ISO. I've found myself highly reliant on the Autos provided in P2, rather than the Autocorrection system in BS.

It is entirely because of the silent nature of autocorrection that would not actually spoil the player. An analogy would be like training wheels on bicycles, the entire reason those are put there is to make you progress to the point where you won't feel them, which by them they're taken away and you won't feel a thing.

However I would like to say that this is our opinion, as much as the above are yours. If we want to do psychoanalysis, I would suggest finding a think tank firm to do this experiment to gain empirical evidence. I would like to point out however, that people who are at our skill level in DJMAX, will not need the Autocorrection, due to a variety of reasons (Not only skill based reasons, charts play a part too.)

Continuing from above, if you play O2 you know of the pills/candies. Those, coupled with the scoring system of O2jam, encourages spamming on hardparts and inclusion of impossible charts, I see it as much more of a crutch than the autocorrection system in DJMAXTR.

[Hypr]

Originally Posted by Yuki Ijuin

Me and Xat both play IIDX, so prolly we can't give you personal anecdotes on this. Taking note of the system however, we both believe that it will not hinder your progress in beatgames, regardless of whether it has an autocorrection system. Because the main focus of beatgames aren't pressing at the right timing, but on the right key, regardless of autocorrection or without, with it you can only go so far before you're slapped awake realizing it doesn't work at higher difficulties. It makes the transition from casual to good that much easier.

I have DJMAXP1 and P2, as well as tested CE and BS with an ISO. I've found myself highly reliant on the Autos provided in P2, rather than the Autocorrection system in BS.

I agree with everything you've said here. The auto-correction does help the learning process for beginners to become good, but for them to become experts, they need to get off the auto-correct system (and turn off Auto!) to see how well they can do on their own independently (without use of any assists.)

Speaking of which, thanks for bringing up the Auto feature. I myself hate using Auto as it does not truly reflect your capabilities. Sure you miss a couple of notes but Auto saves your ass just so that you can keep your combo. I must admit though that I did use Auto on really hard Extreme Challenges in Portable 2 (especially Rave 2 Wave) but for playing Arcade mode or Freestyle, I have Auto turned off just to help me warm up on Network battles where Auto is not available at all.

By the way, if you use Auto, how can you be sure that you are not dependent on auto-correction? For instance, if you play Portable 2 with Auto and press the wrong key, Auto kicks in and gives you a Max 1%. If you play Black Square and press the wrong key, you get whatever accuracy it would have been if you pressed the right key. I'm really curious about your claim here. Please explain to me in full just in case I am misunderstanding something.

Originally Posted by Yuki Ijuin

It is entirely because of the silent nature of autocorrection that would not actually spoil the player. An analogy would be like training wheels on bicycles, the entire reason those are put there is to make you progress to the point where you won't feel them, which by them they're taken away and you won't feel a thing.

Ahh, but here's the problem. In Black Square, Fever, and Trilogy*, the auto-correct system is still there even if you supposedly won't notice it. So the "taking off the training wheels from the bicycle" analogy isn't really appropriate here as there is no way to turn auto-correct off. That's just like saying a person can ride a bike on training wheels without falling off, and the person won't notice it.

* I'm trying out someone's claim regarding auto-correct in MX charts in Trilogy. Someone claimed that auto-correct is disabled there. Will edit this later.

EDIT: Tried hitting wrong keys repetitively on WhiteBlue 6K MX and Seeker 6K SC. Auto-correct is STILL on as it still counts towards your combo. So this claim made by whomever is false.

Originally Posted by Yuki Ijuin

However I would like to say that this is our opinion, as much as the above are yours. If we want to do psychoanalysis, I would suggest finding a think tank firm to do this experiment to gain empirical evidence. I would like to point out however, that people who are at our skill level in DJMAX, will not need the Autocorrection, due to a variety of reasons (Not only skill based reasons, charts play a part too.)

I was thinking of doing another topic for this experiment. However, it needs to be monitored properly so that the ones participating in this experiment are doing it right. Of course, I forgot to mention that for my proposed experiment, the Auto function must be off (or else you won't notice a difference.) Also, the ones participating in this experiment must not be dependent on Auto.

I myself noticed significant changes in my Break count after switching over to Portable 2 from Black Square with Auto off for both games, so I'm curious how everyone else does if they have repeated exactly what I did (i.e. play 6K MX charts on Black Square with no Auto for 1 week straight, and then play 6K MX charts on Portable 2 just once.)

Originally Posted by Yuki Ijuin

Continuing from above, if you play O2 you know of the pills/candies. Those, coupled with the scoring system of O2jam, encourages spamming on hardparts and inclusion of impossible charts, I see it as much more of a crutch than the autocorrection system in DJMAXTR.

Yes, I remember the pill system all too well, but if you do recall, the pill system kicks in if you hit the right note, but at a horrible timing (in which it would be counted as Bad.) If you miss a note and/or hit a wrong key, the pill system won't help you there. Also, those pills are not free - you have to earn them each for 15 consecutive 'Cool's and you can use the up to 5 times in a row. Not saying it's a good system there, but it doesn't cripple your ability and coordination to hitting the right keys. However, it does hurt your timing ability should you rely on it too much.

[Yuki Ijuin]

In order to do such an experiment, you need to first gather people who have no knowledge of beatgames beforehand. Which is impossible. Unless you're funded. Your experimentation will only create anecdotes. I suspect heavily that it will fall 50/50 on both camps, and with suggestion, the results can be easily bias. As with the replies you see so numerously claimed here.

We have reached this section of the argument/debate called human fallibility. Me and Xat both insist that if you're a player that would strive for continued improvement, you'll wean off the autos and autocorrection, as like you are doing. You, on the other hand, assumes that the autos and the autocorrection corrupts players into thinking they can get away with less effort. (Which I'd say even your own actions are contradicting this claim)

There are subjective interpretations for the word dependant, yours might be one where using autos constitutes lying to yourself about your own capabilities, which I am not, since I know full well my own abilities. Autos are an extension of one's abilities, aids, if you prefer, as much as fever gear and tech gears are. I do not use it to "save my ass" I use it as a tool to achieve something. Autocorrection feels much more like a hindrance to me, I can work with it, I can work as well without.

I use auto because I know I cannot full combo a certain song, therefore I need help, doesn't signify I do not need to improve further. In this sense, Autocorrection is actually worse when it comes to higher difficulty songs due to the lag that it executes, creating a domino effect and successfully killing your accuracy on Jackhammers, scales and streams. I hope that answers why I am not dependant on autocorrection, because it sucks harder the harder the song is. While Autos do no such thing. You have a note that you frequently miss on a song and needs to locate it? Autos can help, mayhaps after long periods of training you feel that you still need that auto, by all means keep it on. It isn't cheating, and it doesn't mean you magically got better, you just got some help.

Lastly, if a newbie was announced to him that this autocorrection is a feature of DJMAX games. It helps you throughout all your playlevels. He will have a psychological tendency to follow that rule. Notice that none of us advocate it. Therefore, they will not have the tendency to be dependant on this feature. My analogy was wrongly formed, I apologize. But do not that these training wheels that are still on, will crutch you in manners that you have never thought of before, perhaps in the form of taking high speed corners.

No one here advocates the usage of the autocorrection system, but it's here to stay, carries no malignant intent and is not as big of a deal as most people here try to make it sound. As well as complaints that are intended for all the wrong reasons, in my opinion, of course.

Sorry for asking on such late terms, but what good will there be, even if one of either premises are proven true? In the end, the expert players will still continue to strive for perfection, motivated players will continue to improve with visions of the silouettes of the experts, this system have not been proven to be a problem that halts progress, neither does it hampers it. Honestly, I don't see what the big deal is.

Edit: O2jam's system actually encouraged spamming of keypresses to use up those pills, coupled with the fact that the pills emboldened the notecharters to create some idiocy. Using them were not optional in the game, they were enforced, and those who does not use them are punished harshly by the scoring system. Remember, Bads breaks your combo.

[Hypr]

Originally Posted by Yuki Ijuin

We have reached this section of the argument/debate called human fallibility. Me and Xat both insist that if you're a player that would strive for continued improvement, you'll wean off the autos and autocorrection, as like you are doing. You, on the other hand, assumes that the autos and the autocorrection corrupts players into thinking they can get away with less effort. (Which I'd say even your own actions are contradicting this claim)

This goes back to what I was saying before - that the auto-correction creeps into your performance without notice if you play on high-density notes. But you're right, this matter is all subjective as it depends on the player psychologically. If a player sees a BREAK and their combo gone, they consciously think, "Oh shit, I just fucked up right there." With auto-correction, it's very difficult for some, if not many players to tell whether they are being corrected or not as there is no indication in the game that straight-up tells players, "Hey you idiot! You pressed the wrong key!"

Actually, coming to think about it, that is the main problem with auto-correct - lack of notification. With Auto, at least players will have some clue that it did kick in via "Max 1%" notice. Notification of errors help players perfect themselves.

Originally Posted by Yuki Ijuin

Edit: O2jam's system actually encouraged spamming of keypresses to use up those pills, coupled with the fact that the pills emboldened the notecharters to create some idiocy. Using them were not optional in the game, they were enforced, and those who does not use them are punished harshly by the scoring system. Remember, Bads breaks your combo.

Yes, and as I was saying, the pill system cripples your timing ability, which is not a good thing at all. By the way, that pill penalty by the scoring system is something I never noticed when I played years back.

[Yuki Ijuin]

Luckily there was a math whiz called Gerk that assisted us with all the calculations and stuff.

Lack of notification is a problem, albeit a minor one. One that would apply mainly to newer players who might find the system convenient. As for better players on harder notecharts. Well, the domino bunch of 1% out of nowhere would come to play, fever broken, combo broken, as well as heart broken. One of the easiest way to see this is to repeatedly play something like Someday 6K HD, the part after the miniholds and the note density builds up to a climax. Both me and Xat can do it perfectly most of the time, sometimes the autocorrection just decides you're too good and starts to screw you up.

Anyways, we made walls of text. Where most people will tl;dr. I'd say let's return to the usual banter of "I HAET OTOCORRECT" from newbs and normal players alike.