Ez2on Service will shutdown

[Alesix]

Originally Posted by Baldfalk

Honestly, you hit the nail on the head. Fuck the online music game business. People paid for stuff, tying their access to the existence of a server is complete and utter bullshit.

O2Jam died, DJMAX Online died, why do developers keep thinking now will be any different? That the freeloading community will be a little more generous this time around? But instead of common sense prevailing we have Band Master (yuck), Popstage, Krazy Rain just to name a few. (All of which I don't even expect to survive past 2012, being really generous. But hey, maybe that's just me being bitter)

IIDX and Bemani have survived on retail releases for ~a decade now. Pentavision have begun to adopt a similar retail release model alongside arcade machines. Why can't people learn from that? What is it about Korea and f2p models? Why do the proverbial dogs keep going back to their own vomit?

A publisher holding composers/artists/paying customers by the balls just to 'ensure their own survival' has to be one of the greatest sins of the early 21st century. This isn't an RPG. There's absolutely no reason that music games have to follow the online game model.

edit: And before people mention "BUT FALK ONLINE MUSIC GAMES ALLOW YOU TO HAVE RANKINGS AND MULTIPLAYER AND ADVANCE YOUR CHARACTER AND STUFF" that's another load of bullshit. Arcade machines themselves have online ranking nowadays. Unlocks have existed for music games forever and don't require a central server to store data. Trilogy allows multiplayer (when the server is up ugh) and doesn't have the quandary of "oh fuck, no one wants to pay for a premium song, guess we play the freeloader songs everyone has been sick of for the past few months".

In a decade when I'm feeling nostalgic I'll be able to pop in Happy Sky CS or Trilogy or DJMAX Black Square and enjoy it the exact same way I am now. Ez2ON or O2Jam? Probably not. There's just something emulators don't capture. Also fuck private servers.

There's nothing wrong with the freemium aka F2P aka Play-for-free-forever model, which is one of the best ways for getting the word out about themselves especially when they're relatively unknown in the field (No, I wasn't even aware of EZ2DJ before). In fact, they would probably have died much earlier if they didn't went this way (O2Jam was exclusively Pay-to-Play for a period of time until the players realized, "fuck, there aren't many players here" and began to leave).

The big problem here, is how hard it is to pay for the game, at least for foreign EZ2ON players. Yes, it's NOT about getting us to pay, but rather for us to be able to pay them. I'm sure most of us don't mind skipping a lunch or two just to spare some money for a game they love playing so much. I don't know how widely available are the game cash cards in Korea, but for foreign players, let's assume most are around 16 to 21, don't have a credit card to pay for the premium credits. Even if they did have one, it's so goddamn troublesome to purchase a game card. Let's compare this to, say, buying a PC game at your local computer store, or paying for tokens at a arcade. You go to the counter, pass them cash, and you get what you want - Voilà!

And no, online rhythm games are very different from offline ones, where you can get that urge to mash through the final streak of jackhammers in a level 50 song when you and your rival are on a red health bar.

Oh, as for Trilogy, screw that auto-correct crap. That's what you get when you pay first, play later.

[.Falk]

You had two examples of the system failing. Three now, with Ez2on. The numbers for free-to-play just don't work out. Trust me on this.

You have to realize that for every person willing to pay for premium service, there's going to be a dozen others who don't. (More if Brazillians find out about your game. Okay, I kid. No but really)

Think about this - the amount of freeloaders with access to payment methods (i.e. Koreans in ez2on, Malaysians in the long defunct O2Jam Malaysia) far outweighs the amount of internationals or people who otherwise would be willing to support the game yet cannot do so due to convenience. Yes, it is a factor. Unfortunately, no, it doesn't tip the scales over in terms of self-sufficiency.

You can argue as much as you want about how free-to-play is free advertising. Again, I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying it's just not enough.

P.S. some off-topic points to bring up
1) Autocorrect in Trilogy and its benefits/detriments has to do with gameplay design, not business model. I have no idea how that's relevant to this discussion.

2) O2Jam Malaysia was P2P for a very short fraction of its lifespan. We went F2P on the urging of O2Media, not because of OMFG ALARMING NUMBERS DROP@#$&@. The number of subscriptions were climbing all the way up to the NX package releases. Not that I agree with either system anyway, but TMYK.

3) Regarding the Gaussian Blur example (Thanks for the trip down memory lane btw. Wonder how Arch0wl is doing nowadays - He kept bitching that my piano samples weren't 'powerful enough' when we were working on that track) Whether a game requires you to be connected to a server to play or not has no bearing on whether it has multiplayer. Plenty of people played O2Jam by themselves, in Single rooms, and they still had to connect to a server to play songs they'd purchased already. THAT's the system which is bullshit.

Edit: MSPainted a really quick diagram to highlight what I'm talking about. Yes, the sentiment that there are people out there would HAVE paid had it been convenient is a nice one. However, it was pretty much a drop in the bucket compared to the rest of the accounting sheet. Online games are run by companies who -do- want to make a profit. You'd think that if there were a significant potential income that made easier international payment schemes worth pursuing, (i.e. paypal) they'd have gone for it. They aren't complete morons.

It definitely was a very common point of discussion back in e-Games meetings. And as people like Rossman/Funbox would attest that at least a good chunk of effort was done to recruit more people from over the ocean into O2Jam Malaysia, not the least of which was alternative (though admittedly still not as convenient as they could be) payment methods. In the end the bottom line was the higher-ups unfortunately just deemed it just not worth it.

p.s. was so tempted to add a huge box on the left labelled "Brazillians"

p.p.s. if you're Brazillian, don't hit me...

...too hard.

[Alesix]

Originally Posted by Baldfalk

You had two examples of the system failing. Three now, with Ez2on. The numbers for free-to-play just don't work out. Trust me on this.

You have to realize that for every person willing to pay for premium service, there's going to be a dozen others who don't. (More if Brazillians find out about your game. Okay, I kid. No but really)

Think about this - the amount of freeloaders with access to payment methods (i.e. Koreans in ez2on, Malaysians in the long defunct O2Jam Malaysia) far outweighs the amount of internationals or people who otherwise would be willing to support the game yet cannot do so due to convenience. Yes, it is a factor. Unfortunately, no, it doesn't tip the scales over in terms of self-sufficiency.

You can argue as much as you want about how free-to-play is free advertising. Again, I'm not saying it isn't. I'm saying it's just not enough.

P.S. some off-topic points to bring up
1) Autocorrect in Trilogy and its benefits/detriments has to do with gameplay design, not business model. I have no idea how that's relevant to this discussion.

2) O2Jam Malaysia was P2P for a very short fraction of its lifespan. We went F2P on the urging of O2Media, not because of OMFG ALARMING NUMBERS DROP@#$&@. The number of subscriptions were climbing all the way up to the NX package releases. Not that I agree with either system anyway, but TMYK.

3) Regarding the Gaussian Blur example (Thanks for the trip down memory lane btw. Wonder how Arch0wl is doing nowadays - He kept bitching that my piano samples weren't 'powerful enough' when we were working on that track) Whether a game requires you to be connected to a server to play or not has no bearing on whether it has multiplayer. Plenty of people played O2Jam by themselves, in Single rooms, and they still had to connect to a server to play songs they'd purchased already. THAT's the system which is bullshit.

I see your point, but among the people I know online and offline, it's mostly because of inconvenience, rather than unwillingness, that dissuades them from supporting a great online game financially.

As for my Trilogy comment, I'm sure there are enough players out there who are unhappy with how they forcefully included that crap auto-correct and made it non-optional. If Trilogy was a subscription-based service instead of a pay-one-lump-sum-upfront game, it's either auto-correct goes away, or the players do (I stopped playing Trilogy for a few months already, except for once when EZ2ON was down or something and someone I knew on EZ2ON was asking me to join him in Trilogy). And they would definitely do something about it unlike what is happening now (ie. nothing).

I don't understand your last paragraph there. There has got to be a server in order for a multi-player game to take place, isn't it?

Anyway, it's great to get input from an O2Jam insider. Thumbs up to you for being part of what made O2Jam such an enjoyable game! =)

[.Falk]

Well, Trilogy folded (or is currently temporarily on the freezer, depending who you listen to) for other reasons than its business model. As a game developer I'd continue improving a game regardless if it was a retail release or not, and Pentavision is nothing if not devoted to their games. Considering the patches/updates to the PSP games messed a little with the Autocorrect feature, I'm going to assume they would have addressed it in Trilogy as well.

Regarding that last paragraph, if I want to play alone, I shouldn't have to connect to a server to play stuff I've purchased. If the company folds and the multiplayer portion of the service terminates I shouldn't be barred from playing content I've paid for. (Except the further irony here is that it's content I've made with my own two hands. And I can't play them anymore)

Look, I don't really mean to sound like an elitist insider asshole, but this has just been something I've thought a lot about over the past few years. So bear with me if I'm sounding emotional. :P

[Alesix]

Originally Posted by Baldfalk

Well, Trilogy folded (or is currently temporarily on the freezer, depending who you listen to) for other reasons than its business model. As a game developer I'd continue improving a game regardless if it was a retail release or not, and Pentavision is nothing if not devoted to their games. Considering the patches/updates to the PSP games messed a little with the Autocorrect feature, I'm going to assume they would have addressed it in Trilogy as well.

Regarding that last paragraph, if I want to play alone, I shouldn't have to connect to a server to play stuff I've purchased. If the company folds and the multiplayer portion of the service terminates I shouldn't be barred from playing content I've paid for. (Except the further irony here is that it's content I've made with my own two hands. And I can't play them anymore)

Look, I don't really mean to sound like an elitist insider asshole, but this has just been something I've thought a lot about over the past few years. So bear with me if I'm sounding emotional. :P

I believe it's left in the backburner just like DJMAX Online was before it was re-born as Trilogy. Hey, I was really having fun trying to score 90% for Seeker 6K SC when I first got my hands on Trilogy until auto-correct was gorged in.

For that last paragraph, I suppose you meant something like what Trilogy is now? Then yea, indeed it's good to have an offline single player mode, though one thing in my wishlist (of which "Auto-correct removal" is at the top) is that the online buddy list works in Single-player mode as well. Given the current situation, I guess that won't be happening anytime soon.

And you do sound like an asshole in some of your recent posts, but we know that's because you're just as passionate about rhythm games as the rest of us are.

[.Falk]

DJMAX Online was on the backburner to pave the way for Trilogy. Trilogy is on the backburner because...

Well, because. :/

[Troni]

Originally Posted by LatecomerX

As for my Trilogy comment, I'm sure there are enough players out there who are unhappy with how they forcefully included that crap auto-correct and made it non-optional. If Trilogy was a subscription-based service instead of a pay-one-lump-sum-upfront game, it's either auto-correct goes away, or the players do (I stopped playing Trilogy for a few months already, except for once when EZ2ON was down or something and someone I knew on EZ2ON was asking me to join him in Trilogy). And they would definitely do something about it unlike what is happening now (ie. nothing).

The makers of trilogy are not complete retards, the reason they put auto-correct is because they HAD to for legal reasons, not wanted.

[.Falk]

How's that again? Sounds like an interesting read. I know the basic speculations, but nothing concrete.

edit: Google so far says it's speculation, but then again I'm terrible at Google.

Also le-sigh, why do people fight over this - the music game industry is such a small niche with few enough titles that you can't really consider titles to be competition - people who buy one game are likely to buy others as well after exhausting available content. But I guess business is business. :/

[Alesix]

Originally Posted by Troni

The makers of trilogy are not complete retards, the reason they put auto-correct is because they HAD to for legal reasons, not wanted.

I know their asses are being whipped by Konami, but they don't have to whip our asses in return with a half-baked auto-correct crap.

[Alesix]

Originally Posted by Baldfalk

How's that again? Sounds like an interesting read. I know the basic speculations, but nothing concrete.

edit: Google so far says it's speculation, but then again I'm terrible at Google.

I suppose you're looking for this?

Konami sues Pentavision

[Alesix]

Originally Posted by Baldfalk

Also le-sigh, why do people fight over this - the music game industry is such a small niche with few enough titles that you can't really consider titles to be competition - people who buy one game are likely to buy others as well after exhausting available content. But I guess business is business. :/

For the same reason - because the market is already small enough that they can't afford to lose any bit of it especially to a fast-growing competitor. Konami is such a big bully.

[.Falk]

@link: Yes, we're both talking about the 2008 lawsuit. But where's the connection? (I went back and reread the entire thread just to be sure I didn't miss something months ago)

[Alesix]

Originally Posted by Baldfalk

@link: Yes, we're both talking about the 2008 lawsuit. But where's the connection? (I went back and reread the entire thread just to be sure I didn't miss something months ago)

Yep, it's pure speculation, though it being such a crappy auto-correct, not being able to turn it off and implemented around the time when the lawsuit occurred...let's just say that it's more than a coincidence.

[gundalf]

I hope they will bring a retail version or a release on Steam.
Then i will spent my money but those free2play are a no go to me and most people i know. You dont spent on things you cant touch or fully own, but that is maybe an cultural thing and in asia no problem.

[.Falk]

(Boy this is so amazingly off-topic now haha)

The Escapist : News : DJ Max Interview with Michael Yum of PM Studios

DJ Max Interview with Michael Yum of PM Studios
Jared Rea posted on 10 Dec 2008 8:55 am

<snip>
In Korea, Pentavision has been working on the sequel to Portable 2 called DJ Max Black Square. So we said, let's just give them something new by adding the Black Square engine to Fever. No one really knows what that is [laughs], so I'll just tell you a little bit about Black Square. It features a new, green note that allows players to control the background music. So not only can you play the beats, but you can change the background music as well. It also features a new freestyle mode where you can push any button to match the beat, but it gets harder as you go along because you have to play with a lot of different combinations or your points will go down. We decided it was best to delay the release of DJ Max Fever until January to add all of this.

And the lawsuit:

음악 시뮬레이션 게임 "DJ MAX 시리즈"에 대한 특허침해소송 제기의 건
2008년 12월 24일

Highlights mine. The part about green notes is amusing, though. :P

edit: Amidst all of this, I'm just going to reiterate that I'm not arguing pro-autocorrect. If anything, it makes the learning curve steeper, the game harder in some respects, and if nothing else should be toggleable.