UFOs, Abductees, Aliens, and Crackpots

[I AM THE PROPHECY.]

edit to add snapps in

Originally Posted by Snapps

It's good to keep anything that hasn't been proven yet open for discussion about possibilities. Just because someone has a belief, doesn't mean they should have to deny anything else from proving their thoughts false.

If someone can definitively prove that sentient life exists outside of Earth's atmosphere then I'll gladly reverse my stance. It's possible, it just isn't likely that said life is visiting Earth and plucking farmers out of cornfields.

edit: I looked at your post a little more closely and figured it was worth pointing out that your comparison of sentient extraterrestrial denial to evolution denial is faulty on the basis that denying evolution involves denying an incredibly large body of consistently reported peer-reviewed research, whereas denying the truth of abductee stories involves rejecting the claims of a few scattered crackpots

Originally Posted by rogeriidx

You said it's a waste of time to find something that isn't there, yet you also said; "I absolutely agree that there's probably life out there." So which is it?

There are probably microbes in an ocean someplace. I said that spaceships from other planets probably aren't anywhere. Learn to read.

"If trying to find alien life forms is a waste of time, mind as well just scrap the majority of the trips to outer space.

They serve purposes besides searching for other life, so, no.

I don't know what you think is a waste of resources, but I believe that if there is a chance to make a discovery, then the expenditure of monetary funds is well spent!

NASA is a gigantic money sink by definition, but some research is more legitimate than others. Flying saucers, the sort of shit this thread is about, are not a field of research that NASA investigates. They killed SETI for a reason.

The point of Nasa is space exploration, trying to find other life forms is built into the the strategic goal. Who bloody cares if a majority of the scientifically minded folks don't go looking for UFO's?

No one in the scientific community looks for UFOs. Folks who have read an excess of science fiction do.

It's not like they have to or want to, maybe they don't even desire to. The scientifically minded folks that really give any serious thought to this idea are the ufologists

This doesn't make sense

and astrologists.

This doesn't either

If you want to know why, that's why humans are trying to find out more about aliens. Rather than saying all our efforts are just a waste of time and money. You pose the questions, the handful of scientists are trying to find out. Why are people complaining about the scientist's efforts?

I'm complaining because these "scientists" a) have found nothing b) most likely never are going to find anything. That's because there most likely isn't anything to find. Usually funding for shit "science" dries up pretty quickly and I'm honestly not sure why it hasn't here.

Calling people morons while they talk about being abducted, on T.V. is the most rational decision? How is that true?

They don't have any proof. A rational mind rejects their claims on that basis.

As mentioned before, some of those abductees showed some proof of being abducted, they tried to prove their case.

Absolutely no one in this thread has mentioned anything about TV abductees having proof, because they never do. So I have no idea what you're talking about here.

I got no proof to discount them.

Proving that something doesn't exist is impossible. Proving that something does exist is possible, but it hasn't been done here. If you're being suckered in, that's your own fault. How tragic.

If stories don't match up and details were faked, I too would be suspicious.

How the hell is a story from one person supposed to match up or fail to match up with anything?

But there are cases where people's personal encounters of unexplainable details that can not be proven false nor definitely true.

And since they can't prove that they're definitely true the more likely explanation is insanity/hallucination/a desire for attention.

Prove they don't exist. Until you can, my beliefs are just as valid as the people who say extraterrestrials don't exist.

Are you retarded? Does "burden of proof" mean anything to you? Proving that something doesn't exist can't be done, but it's safe to assume that sentient alien life isn't out there because there's practically no evidence for it at all.

[Ztype]

There are something like 300 billion star systems in our galaxy alone, each with however many planets. I don't even know how many billions of galaxies there are out there, but by sheer odds alone there is life out there. Intelligent life may be rare, but even if the odds are as slim as 1 in 5,000,000,000 that a star system is home to sentient life, that's still 2 trillion star systems going by the current estimate of how many stars there are out there.

[snapps]

If life forms ever did come to Earth, do you guys think any government of the world will let anyone know of this?

Of course not. It would cause havoc across the world if we hear the truth. If beings are smart about what they're doing (this is saying they've actually came to Earth), they will never show themselves publicly. Travel would be hidden and contact would be with high authorities; no one else.

[I AM THE PROPHECY.]

Originally Posted by Ztype

There are something like 300 billion star systems in our galaxy alone, each with however many planets. I don't even know how many billions of galaxies there are out there, but by sheer odds alone there is life out there. Intelligent life may be rare, but even if the odds are as slim as 1 in 5,000,000,000 that a star system is home to sentient life, that's still 2 trillion star systems going by the current estimate of how many stars there are out there.

Yeah, that's safe, legitimate reasoning, but if there aren't any near Earth then they might as well not exist at all since they'll never get here, barring the use of some technology way the fuck outside our grasp. That's one of the points I'm getting at.

Originally Posted by Snapps

If life forms ever did come to Earth, do you guys think any government of the world will let anyone know of this?

Given their track record on keeping much of anything else secret, yes. I think they would. The fact that they haven't means that there's nothing to hide.

Originally Posted by Snapps

Of course not. It would cause havoc across the world if we hear the truth. If beings are smart about what they're doing (this is saying they've actually came to Earth), they will never show themselves publicly. Travel would be hidden and contact would be with high authorities; no one else.

Great, except that--again--there's no way to prove or disprove that such a thing is happening so it's more sensible to assume that it isn't.

[Ztype]

Originally Posted by Snapps

If life forms ever did come to Earth, do you guys think any government of the world will let anyone know of this?

Of course not. It would cause havoc across the world if we hear the truth. If beings are smart about what they're doing (this is saying they've actually came to Earth), they will never show themselves publicly. Travel would be hidden and contact would be with high authorities; no one else.

Even if this were true, what would aliens gain from cooperating with the government in order to keep their presence hidden? What would they gain at all from the deception? Their really isn't any rational reason why they would do this. What would they lose if they landed a spaceship in the middle of the super bowl? They would start a riot sure, but why would they give a hoot? Surely earth can't be the only home of practical jokers in the universe.

Centuries ago explorers didn't go out of their way to keep themselves hidden from whatever or whoever they found when they discovered new land. Barring the idea that there is some type of interstellar law out there that forbids interaction with underdeveloped planets ala Star Ocean, there really isn't any sensible reason to deceive anyone.

[snapps]

Originally Posted by Ztype

What would they lose if they landed a spaceship in the middle of the super bowl? They would start a riot sure, but why would they give a hoot? Surely earth can't be the only home of practical jokers in the universe.

If we were so much more intelligent than another life lets say on Mars and Mars didn't know about us, I think we would make the decision on not startling the people of Mars and go with a more unnoticed approach. We wouldn't be jokers, but highly specialized people going on a mission for something.

So something is the reason aliens would be here.

Maybe these life forms want to connect with our civilization as securely as they can (for some reason), and are taking the most cautious way of doing so.

[nVGDlm_zk]

Why would they want to contact our planet? If they have the technology to travel through space and go anywhere they want, what the hell can our planet offer them? Why're they coming here and abducting rural hicks, farmers and cows?

[DeusExMachina]

Our sun is 1 star out of 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 (not a BS number that is actually about how many stars are in our universe), about 1/5 can support life, so I would be hard headed to say our existence is one in 2,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.

But in lieu of the laws of physics, I do not believe any form of life has made it to earth.

And yes astronomers have seen other planets in the universe orbiting other stars. Although still no life confirmed from those findings.

[I AM THE PROPHECY.]

Originally Posted by VGD

Why would they want to contact our planet? If they have the technology to travel through space and go anywhere they want, what the hell can our planet offer them? Why're they coming here and abducting rural hicks, farmers and cows?

Sometimes I tease my dog by taking his favorite rope and faking him out once before I let him grab it and play with it so maybe the aliens are like me and the farmers are my dog and...being on television is the rope?

I don't know where the cows fit in, this analogy kind of got away from me

[nVGDlm_zk]

I don't know. I was just making a reference to all the mutilated cows that the nutjobs blame on aliens.

[rogeriidx]

Briar Patch, stop being so closed minded. The reason that people keep on trying to find other life forms in outer space is that there is no proof of not being any life forms. There are more reasons to believe that there is intelligent life out there, rather than there is not.

Dismissing the existence of little Aliens in U.F.O.'s because of thousands of encounters is unreasonable. Let me remind you that the African Mountain Gorilla wasn't discovered till recently. All we (humans) had were a couple of sightings and some tracks, the vast majority of us just say that they were big foot encounters or local people going nuts about religious folk-lore. Until explorers actually found the damn ape, the sightings were regarded as stupid.

With that being said, could we really dismiss the idea of intelligent life out there? Whom like the gorillas in the past were so hard to find and were lead on by only a few encounters. If the gorillas were so hard to find, imagine how hard it is to find Aliens. The gorillas were on our own planet and us humans took a while.

"No one in the scientific community looks for UFOs. Folks who have read an excess of science fiction do."

Now that is just pure ignorance brought on by bias reasoning.

"NASA is a gigantic money sink by definition, but some research is more legitimate than others. Flying saucers, the sort of shit this thread is about, are not a field of research that NASA investigates. They killed SETI for a reason."

NASA is a gigantic money sink? I did an argumentative paper last year trying to raise awareness for NASA, NASA doesn't have much funding at all. In fact, their funds are minuscule compared to homeland security, social security, even health care.

"Absolutely no one in this thread has mentioned anything about TV abductees having proof, because they never do. So I have no idea what you're talking about here."

You should re-read the thread again, in it's entirety. Because there was mention of proof from abductees.


"How the hell is a story from one person supposed to match up or fail to match up with anything?"

Obviously you didn't really go in-depth in your research about sightings in order to say that. Sightings are not confined to just hick farmers in the desolate prairies. There are innumerable sightings by airplane pilots, military personal, law enforcement, urban citizens, and etc. Their sightings are the ones that stir up attention, because they have credentials and other witnesses with them. The sighting over Mexico City is one of the most famous, hundreds of people saw unidentified flying objects in the air at the same time. There's camera footage of the damn event. Each person's accounts were identical to one another in terms of the objects shape and time of appearance. Airplane pilots are known for being meticulous in observations and their sightings are backed up by not only their credentials, but also air traffic control.

With all these unexplained sightings made by trust-worthy people, it would make anybody think rather our planet is being visited or not. Maybe we should place the burden of proof on the people dismissing U.F.O.'s and intelligent space beings.

[noisy doll☆]

Modern science has never put the burden of proof on the dissenters.

And just because I don't think that any of these people on television have actually been abducted by or have seen aliens, it doesn't mean that I don't believe in the existence of extraterrestrial life. You are trying to draw the line too broadly. Just because they may be out there, it doesn't necessarily mean that *those* people found them.

[Electronic PF]

the idea of vastly advanced sentient beings that found Earth by chance and decided to fuck with us for laughs is ludicrously unlikely

Originally Posted by rogeriidx

With all these unexplained sightings made by trust-worthy people, it would make anybody think rather our planet is being visited or not.

I don't really understand everything you said here but trustworthiness has little worth in an argument over space aliens because of human fallibility and tendency to see shit that isn't there

Originally Posted by rogeriidx

Maybe we should place the burden of proof on the people dismissing U.F.O.'s and intelligent space beings.

logical fallacy

[rogeriidx]

Originally Posted by PF the PF

don't really understand everything you said here but trustworthiness has little worth in an argument over space aliens because of human fallibility and tendency to see shit that isn't there

Yes, hundreds of people in Mexico City start seeing the same shit. Pilot, co-pilot, and navigator start seeing the same shit also, when they encounter U.F.O.'s. Groups of soldiers stationed in a military base start seeing shit that just so happens to relate to each other in identical ways. Fallibility is definitely on the table when people's reported sightings differ from each other, but when there's a consistency in a sighting, then fallibility can be ruled out.

Loring Airforce Base: 1975-Loring Air Force Base Sightings

Bendwater Woodbridge Landings:
1980-UFO Landings at Rendlesham Forest

[I AM THE PROPHECY.]

Originally Posted by rogeriidx

Briar Patch, stop being so closed minded.

no

The reason that people keep on trying to find other life forms in outer space is that there is no proof of not being any life forms.

YOU CAN'T PROVE THAT SOMETHING DOES NOT EXIST. IT IS A SCIENTIFIC, LOGICAL, AND PHILOSOPHICAL IMPOSSIBILITY. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD.

Dismissing the existence of little Aliens in U.F.O.'s because of thousands of encounters is unreasonable.

You mean thousands of claims of encounters? Because a claim doesn't prove shit.

Let me remind you that the African Mountain Gorilla wasn't discovered till recently. All we (humans) had were a couple of sightings and some tracks, the vast majority of us just say that they were big foot encounters or local people going nuts about religious folk-lore. Until explorers actually found the damn ape, the sightings were regarded as stupid.

While this entire analogy is ridiculous (no one thought it was more likely to be a fucking sasquatch, since they don't exist either), that's how it should be. Believing everything you're told is dangerous.

Now that is just pure ignorance brought on by bias reasoning.

No, it's a sensible look at the sorts of people who claim to have seen UFOs vs. the sorts of people who send satellites to Jupiter's moons to look for microbes.

NASA is a gigantic money sink?

yeah

I did an argumentative paper last year trying to raise awareness for NASA

Post it somewhere, I could use a good laugh

NASA doesn't have much funding at all. In fact, their funds are minuscule compared to homeland security, social security, even health care.

The point I was making was that they can and do pick and choose what they research. NASA does not perform research into flying saucers, which is what this thread is about, because it isn't likely that they exist. You fucking idiot.

You should re-read the thread again, in it's entirety. Because there was mention of proof from abductees.

Someone doesn't know the difference between making a claim and proving a claim (it's you)

Obviously you didn't really go in-depth in your research about sightings in order to say that. Sightings are not confined to just hick farmers in the desolate prairies. There are innumerable sightings by airplane pilots, military personal, law enforcement, urban citizens, and etc. Their sightings are the ones that stir up attention, because they have credentials and other witnesses with them. The sighting over Mexico City is one of the most famous, hundreds of people saw unidentified flying objects in the air at the same time. There's camera footage of the damn event. Each person's accounts were identical to one another in terms of the objects shape and time of appearance. Airplane pilots are known for being meticulous in observations and their sightings are backed up by not only their credentials, but also air traffic control.

Oh okay. So every single unidentified flying object is an alien craft. They're never, say, a weather balloon, a flock of birds, or, hell, even an experimental jet, all of which are more likely than it being something from off of this planet. Right.

With all these unexplained sightings made by trust-worthy people, it would make anybody think rather our planet is being visited or not.

Obviously it wouldn't which is why I'm sitting here calling you a moron over the internet

Maybe we should place the burden of proof on the people dismissing U.F.O.'s and intelligent space beings.

Originally Posted by noisy doll of /flex

Modern science has never put the burden of proof on the dissenters.

As Becky has said the burden of proof can never be placed on the negative claim and the fact that you don't seem to understand this makes this like shooting fish in a barrel

Learn to argue

Originally Posted by rogeriidx

Yes, hundreds of people in Mexico City start seeing the same shit. Pilot, co-pilot, and navigator start seeing the same shit also, when they encounter U.F.O.'s. Groups of soldiers stationed in a military base start seeing shit that just so happens to relate to each other in identical ways. Fallibility is definitely on the table when people's reported sightings differ from each other, but when there's a consistency in a sighting, then fallibility can be ruled out.

Even if they actually did see something, which is a stretch since mass hallucinations are a known and understood phenomenon, you know what can't be ruled out? A simpler explanation, like maybe it was something human in origin.