More intricate rating system.

Solefald · 12-08-2006, 12:50 AM

I've been playing Beatmania IIDX for a long time, and I always found Pop'n Music and Guitar Freaks easier to progress through than DDR. I feel strongly that this is because Guitar Freaks is rated from 10 to 99, and Pop'n Music is ranked from 3 to 43. Beatmania IIDX is ranked 1 to 12, and that's only recently.

So, beginner notecharts aside, let's start ranking songs from 1 to 50. This isn't overall song difficulty, it's clear difficulty. Judging by this, Please Don't Go, Fake Time, and Piano Concerto No. 1 should be 50. If I recall, once the Happy Sky final clear rates got out, those 3 were actually lower than Mei. If someone could find me the page for reference, please do so.

Maybe this is just a pipe dream, but if a bunch of people want to join in, please do. Here's this for reference though:

1 - 1-3
2 - 4-6
3 - 7-9
4 - 10-15
5 - 16-21
6 - 22-26
7 - 27-31
8 - 32-36
9 - 37-40
10 - 41-44
11 - 45-47
12 - 48-50

I guess the first thing we should do is separate all of the 1* and 12* songs because there aren't many of each.

Level 1:
5.1.1. [L]
Be in My Paradise [L]
E-Motion [L]
Five Fathoms [L]
Flowers For Albion [L]
Gambol [L]
Gambol [7]
Macho Gang [L]
Tangerine Stream [L]
You Really Got Me [L]

Level 12:
A [A]
AA [A]
Colors (Radio Edit) [A]
Erasermotor Maximum [A] (?)
Fake Time [7]
Fake Time [A]
Gambol [A] (?)
Gigadelic [7]
Gigadelic [A]
Hype the Core [A] (?)
Innocent Walls [7]
Innocent Walls [A]
Mei [A]
Moon_child [A]
One More Lovely [A]
One or Eight [A]
Piano Concerto No. 1 [A]
Please Don't Go [A]
Rage Against Usual [A]
Sakura [A]
Scream Squad [A]
Scripted Connection [A]
Setsugekka [A]
Stoic [A]
V [A]

Yes, I did purposely leave out songs from DistorteD. Not enough people have played it. We'll get to it later, maybe. I would've left out Happy Sky too, but it'll be out soon, so might as well get those.

Opinions of new and experienced players alike are welcome. New players especially, because I'd like to think someone stuck on 5* songs can judge 5* songs better than someone who can clear everything.

My takes on 1* are that, well, Gambol is a 1* for sure. I don't know about the rest though.

As for 12* songs, I think these should at least be on bottom:

Fake Time [7]
Gigadelic [7]
Innocent Walls [7]
One or Eight [A]
Stoic [A]

And these should be on top:

Fake Time [A]
Mei [A]
One More Lovely [A]
Piano Concerto No. 1 [A]
Please Don't Go [A]

But I'm not super-experienced or super-new, so I can't be the sole judge of this.

PICASIO PICASIO · 12-08-2006, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solefald

Be in My Paradise [L]

We need a 12 Chart for this. make it happen steppers.

I think that if they're going to do a further rating system, make it 1-99.
Or just make it 7.1 - 7.2 -7.3 etc. etc. etc.

Though I kind of figure that they won't, I think it's decent as it is.

Though think about it. Someone needs to put together a GIANT list of bemani songs, sorted by difficulty. Not by level, difficulty. as in even tough awakening [7k] and SPEEDY CAT [7k] are both Level 7, awakening is obviously easier than SPEEDY CAT, so it would be below it.
Make it happen.

Amp Divorax · 12-08-2006, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParadoxVincent

I think that if they're going to do a further rating system, make it 1-99.
Or just make it 7.1 - 7.2 -7.3 etc. etc. etc.

Though I kind of figure that they won't, I think it's decent as it is.

Though think about it. Someone needs to put together a GIANT list of bemani songs, sorted by difficulty. Not by level, difficulty. as in even tough awakening [7k] and SPEEDY CAT [7k] are both Level 7, awakening is obviously easier than SPEEDY CAT, so it would be below it.
Make it happen.

That is something that would definitely take a long time to do. I honestly don't see the ratings system getting changed anytime soon since the 12 star system has been widely accepted as an effective way to determine the song's difficulty.

pvcRiot · 12-08-2006, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ParadoxVincent

I think that if they're going to do a further rating system, make it 1-99.
Or just make it 7.1 - 7.2 -7.3 etc. etc. etc.

I don't think I'd really care for the 1-99 thing for beatmania. It'd be abused cause if they had 99s they'd always come up with something harder. The whole 7.5 and other decimals and such might be good. I'm playing mostly 10's and 11's now and I always think of songs in terms of "easy 11, moderate 11, hard 11" etc.

ThatsGobbles · 12-08-2006, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pvcRiot

I don't think I'd really care for the 1-99 thing for beatmania. It'd be abused cause if they had 99s they'd always come up with something harder.

It's been working for GFDM since, what, GF4DM3? I think it'd be a cool idea.

Solefald · 12-08-2006, 03:15 AM

I disagree with the argument that "it can be more difficult than 99." It has indeed worked since GF/DM as long as you introduce something absurdly hard early on. Besides, you can make things more difficult than 12 (hi 12/13th OMES songs) and in DDR certainly more difficult than 10. This is already an old problem.

Psydude · 12-08-2006, 04:56 AM

what the hell?

i read this thread, then i read another

a japanese poster (ruboteca) posted this site:
http://sungeki.hp.infoseek.co.jp/bmrank/bmrank.htm

have a field day.
(thank him, not me)

PolarisIIDX · 12-08-2006, 05:03 AM

I agree the difficulty levels are still rather broad even on a 12 rating system. However, IIDX is kind of unique in the fact that what can be easy for some might be hard for others. I can easily remember beating all 10s (including all anothers besides Kakumei and Fun) before I was able to beat Kakumei Hyper without random. I'm sure there are people who had no trouble with that song but might have struggled considerably with Setsugekka Hyper for example.

I suppose in giving most songs a general rating you can get an overall feel where they belong, since the true difficulty will ultimately be different for most players.

Solefald · 12-08-2006, 07:22 AM

Wow! I feel like a dumbass now. Heheh. But at least I know my idea isn't crazy.

I've been reading over that site for 15-20 minutes now. It's pretty good, except I disagree with a lot of it. For example, I think that Be Quiet [A] and PC#1 [7] are two of the easiest 11* songs... I also find Innocent Walls [H] and Gigadelic [H] both quite easier than their [A] songs, yet they're rated together.

Quote:

unique in the fact that what can be easy for some might be hard for others

It's not unique at all. Every music game is the same in that aspect. Still, there's more room for intricacy. You can't tell me Blame [A] is easier than Be Quiet [A]. There are very, very few people who I think would agree with that. Your Kakumei example is good, but that doesn't cover every case.

EDIT:

Here's what I have so far for the 12* songs. Anyone who wants to disagree, feel free.

48 A [A]
48 Erasermotor Maximum [A]
48 Fake Time [7]
48 Gambol [A]
48 Gigadelic [7]
48 Hype the Core [A]
48 Innocent Walls [7]
48 One or Eight [A]
48 Sakura [A]
48 Scream Squad [A]
48 Setsugekka [A]
48 Stoic [A]

49 AA [A]
49 Colors (Radio Edit) [A]
49 Gigadelic [A]
49 Innocent Walls [A]
49 Moon_child [A]
49 Rage Against Usual [A]
49 Scripted Connection [A]
49 V [A]

50 Fake Time [A]
50 Mei [A]
50 One More Lovely [A]
50 Piano Concerto No. 1 [A]
50 Please Don't Go [A]

rmz · 12-08-2006, 08:17 AM

This has been around for a while. Psydude even linked it:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psydude

http://sungeki.hp.infoseek.co.jp/bmrank/bmrank.htm

afex.racer_X · 12-08-2006, 10:46 AM

I like the idea, but I dont think that IIDX should do the jump from 1-99, higher than 12 though. Maybe 20? who knows. But anyways just out of curiousity Solefald why is Please Don't Go a 50? and AA and Moon_Child not? IMO I think that Please Don't Go is a lot easier to clear than AA and Moon_Child. I do realize that most of the songs you have as 50's just have the massive BS endings. But anyways, the thing with spreading out the difficulties to a wider range would be that none of the songs would have the same difficulty. You wouldn't be able to say ..."oh i'm clearing *8's and *9's" Kind of easier to group now that it only goes up to 12. But just for the record I wouldn't mind seeing it jump up a little bit like a mentioned earlier. Oh well, just my 2 cents.

DeepYume · 12-08-2006, 11:08 AM

Yeah, I don't really see the point of all this. Most of the song difficulties on GF/DM are subject to even more scrutiny because they're on the 1~99 scale (Such and such doesn't deserve to be a 93, it's totally an 89, blah blah blah). Keep it broad, keep it subjective.

Plus, as far as your proposed rankings are concerned, I think you're being a little top heavy. As it stands, 12 is a good indicator of 'ridiculously hard songs' or what have you. But if you were to expand it to 50 or 100, there should be VERY few songs at the upper end of the spectrum. Like any good teacher should know, a 100 should be a nigh-unattainable grade. Likewise, 50 should be reserved for the very pinnacle of difficult songs (haven't played either, but only Mei and Nageki, from what I can tell). From there, the 12s should spread out down to the low to mid 40s range.

Again, I think it's a silly idea over all and that the current ranking is fine. Just my two cents.

dj Z00M · 12-08-2006, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psydude

what the hell?

i read this thread, then i read another

a japanese poster (ruboteca) posted this site:
http://sungeki.hp.infoseek.co.jp/bmrank/bmrank.htm

have a field day.
(thank him, not me)

I definately like this. This is much better. The 12 system is good, but it does leave in some holes still.

Monster in a box · 12-08-2006, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Solefald

50 Fake Time [A]
50 Mei [A]
50 One More Lovely [A]
50 Piano Concerto No. 1 [A]
50 Please Don't Go [A]

Here's how my gauge looks at the end of those songs.

Fake Time 2%
Mei 2%
OML 4%
Scorpion Fire 4%
PDG 68%

Ok, so I haven't actually played all of them, but you get the point.

I think IIDXs rating system is fine as it is. The more ratings a song has, the more there is to whine about. I just got Guitar Freaks last week, and the ratings seem uber-inconsistent.

Solefald · 12-08-2006, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by afex.racer_X

I like the idea, but I dont think that IIDX should do the jump from 1-99, higher than 12 though. Maybe 20? who knows. But anyways just out of curiousity Solefald why is Please Don't Go a 50? and AA and Moon_Child not? IMO I think that Please Don't Go is a lot easier to clear than AA and Moon_Child. I do realize that most of the songs you have as 50's just have the massive BS endings. But anyways, the thing with spreading out the difficulties to a wider range would be that none of the songs would have the same difficulty. You wouldn't be able to say ..."oh i'm clearing *8's and *9's" Kind of easier to group now that it only goes up to 12. But just for the record I wouldn't mind seeing it jump up a little bit like a mentioned earlier. Oh well, just my 2 cents.

Please Don't Go has a lower clear rate than Moon_child and AA. That's my only reason, sorry. Keep in mind that the difficulty of some songs (Wonder Bullfighter, One or Eight, Please Don't Go) changes immensely when you're playing on an AC controller. I'm personally not good enough to judge 12s myself.

I used that site you guys posted to get the basis for my 12* ratings (combined with clear rates) but also, the site doesn't cover L7 songs.

If you don't want to help with this, ok. Sorry if it was a bad idea. Heh. I will probably change PDG down to 49, but I want to hear someone else give their opinion first.