Songs/Charts in IIDX in time signatures other than 4/4

[Xythar]

Originally Posted by Fred 00

So I'm not crazy after all for claiming most gabber is 6/8 Thankya.

You could make a case for Vanessa being 6/8, but songs like The Deep Striker are definitely in swung 4/4, not 6/8.

The Deep Striker isn't a constant 1-2-3-1-2-3 rhythm, it's more like one, and-two, and-three, and-four.

[Patashu]

R5 is in 6/4 until about a minute in when it changes to 4/4.

[Ætheros]

Originally Posted by Patashu

it has six NOTES per measure, and two BEATS.

You just described 6/8 timing. Six notes per measure, with two beats (most 6/8 music is divided into two pulses of three notes, that's what I have been trying to explain to you.)

Think about what you just said. Six notes per measure. These are obviously eighth notes. That is to the letter what defines 6/8 timing.

Originally Posted by Patashu

If it had three beats per six notes, I'd agree it's in 6/8. How can the number of beats not matter, though?

You're too closely relating 6/8 music with 3/4 music. I totally get that, mathematically that makes sense, but what you described just now sounds to me like a 3/4 song with eight notes being played.

Let's put it this way, if you can count three beats per measure, it is 3/4.
If you can count two beats per measure, with three eight notes per beat, it's 6/8 (and 6/8 can get pretty complicated and weird if you want it to but I won't get into that.)
If you can count 4 beats per measure, it's 4/4

The fact remains that you can't count four beats per measure in EternuS. Every two measure you could, but that would account for 12 notes/rests.

Originally Posted by Xythar

You could make a case for Vanessa being 6/8, but songs like The Deep Striker are definitely in swung 4/4, not 6/8.

The Deep Striker isn't a constant 1-2-3-1-2-3 rhythm, it's more like one, and-two, and-three, and-four.

Just because there's rests in between the notes doesn't change the time signature. There are six eight note rests or notes per measure. That makes it 6/8. basic music theory. It's not that hard guys.

[Xythar]

Originally Posted by Ætheros

Just because there's rests in between the notes doesn't change the time signature. There are six eight note rests or notes per measure. That makes it 6/8. basic music theory. It's not that hard guys.

Swung note - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Xythar]

It's funny also because this debate obviously goes beyond IIDX:

Help with time signatures please? - Yahoo!7 Answers

That song is also swung 4/4 AFAIK.

If you want a IIDX example, compare Garden to The Deep Striker and count just the beats, not the notes that make up the beats (which in both cases are triplets). Garden goes 1-2-3-1-2-3 and so on with the actual beats. The Deep Striker is 1-2-3-4. Garden is swung 6/8 (I think?) and TDS is swung 4/4.

[Ætheros]

I know plenty about swung/shuffle notes and now I understand where you are getting mixed up here.

To quote the article you linked me to "In music, a swung note or shuffle note is a performance practice ... in which some notes with equal written time values are performed with unequal durations, usually as alternating long and short."

Swung notes aren't triplets, they are just slight and non-specific alterations in the rhythm of a song. I'm really at a loss for how to explain this to you through text, though it would suffice (hopefully) to say that swung notes aren't triplets, and don't follow the same timing as triplets. The music I've been saying is 6/8 have notes that fit perfectly into triplet timing. This could mean the song was written in 4/4 with only 1/12 notes, but it's a thousand times more likely that they would be written in 6/8, since eighth notes are easier to work with than 1/12th notes.

If I get the time maybe I'll try to find some examples of swung 4/4 music to contrast with these IIDX examples, and tomorrow I'll definitely give Garden and The Deep Striker a listen to make sure I understand what you are trying to say.

[Xythar]

How does TDS not fit that long/short description? Would you classify both TDS and garden as 6/8 despite the fact that TDS is clearly broken up to 2 or 4 beats per measure and garden is 3 or 6, when they both then subdivide the beat into triplets? What about Are You Gonna Be My Girl by Jet?

More examples here of what I'm talking about (using Pop'n music)

YouTube - Pop'n Music 14 Fever - Chocolate Philosophy [Ex35] 95k Swung 6/8 like garden.
YouTube - Pop'n Music 14 - Rondo EX Straight 6/8 (man my older videos are terrible quality)
YouTube - Pop'n Music 13 - Kanransha (Ferris wheel) EX Straight 3/4 I think
YouTube - Pop'n Music 12 CS - Moe Pop EX Swung 4/4 like TDS


edit: call it shuffled rather than swung if you must, my point is that it's valid to call TDS etc. 4/4 time as the meter has plenty to differentiate it from actual 6/8 songs.

[TOFU!!]

Doesn't the fact that these songs are in IIDX give the time signatures away? :V

Just watch the white lines on the chart. They note the downbeat of the measure, so just count how many beats there are between measures.

[Ætheros]

Originally Posted by Xythar

How does TDS not fit that long/short description? Would you classify both TDS and garden as 6/8 despite the fact that TDS is clearly broken up to 2 or 4 beats per measure and garden is 3 or 6, when they both then subdivide the beat into triplets? What about Are You Gonna Be My Girl by Jet?

Yes yes, I get what you are saying, but in TDS they're perfect triplet notes. They don't fit the characterizations of shuffle notes. It's like if you played a grace note as a normal eighth note, you'd get the same basic sound, but you still wouldn't be playing what was written.
I'll explain more when I'm not completely deprived of sleep, hopefully later on today :P

[Xythar]

Originally Posted by Ætheros

Yes yes, I get what you are saying, but in TDS they're perfect triplet notes. They don't fit the characterizations of shuffle notes. It's like if you played a grace note as a normal eighth note, you'd get the same basic sound, but you still wouldn't be playing what was written.
I'll explain more when I'm not completely deprived of sleep, hopefully later on today :P

The wikipedia article says that shuffle notes follow the triplet pattern though, and are sometimes expressed in written music as triplets (other times as eighths with the instruction to play as a shuffle). It specifically says that in shuffle the long note is twice as long as the short note, which you could express as triplets.

Originally Posted by TOFU!!

Doesn't the fact that these songs are in IIDX give the time signatures away? :V

Just watch the white lines on the chart. They note the downbeat of the measure, so just count how many beats there are between measures.

This too. TDS has 4 beats per measure ingame, whereas Garden for example has six.

[Ætheros]

Originally Posted by Xythar

The wikipedia article says that shuffle notes follow the triplet pattern though, and are sometimes expressed in written music as triplets (other times as eighths with the instruction to play as a shuffle). It specifically says that in shuffle the long note is twice as long as the short note, which you could express as triplets.

Yes but this is wikipedia we're talking about. I've been taught that shuffle notes are non-specific. The article even says that it only follows the long short patter some of the time.

Either way, in TDS and other Gabber songs that shuffle sounding beat can easily be mistaken for swung 4/4 were it not for the notes that fill the spaces at certain points in the song. As in, actual triplets. As in six notes per measure. I mean honestly, you could write the song in 4/4 with nothing but triplets and shuffle notes, but my god who would do that when it would be infinitely easier to write the damn thing in 6/8
You're overcomplicating something very basic.

Originally Posted by Xythar

This too. TDS has 4 beats per measure ingame, whereas Garden for example has six.

I've been arguing from the very get-go that konami takes 6/8 songs and puts 4/4 twelfth-note-only charts on them.
Either way I can ask my piano teacher tonight if there is a difference between swung 4/4 and 6/8 timing. Hopefully that will clear something up, though I'm certain TDS and most of the gabber music on IIDX is in 6/8.

[Xythar]

Originally Posted by Ætheros

Either way, in TDS and other Gabber songs that shuffle sounding beat can easily be mistaken for swung 4/4 were it not for the notes that fill the spaces at certain points in the song. As in, actual triplets. As in six notes per measure. I mean honestly, you could write the song in 4/4 with nothing but triplets and shuffle notes, but my god who would do that when it would be infinitely easier to write the damn thing in 6/8
You're overcomplicating something very basic.

Because it's not a 6/8 song. You just have to listen and compare TDS to garden to see that. One goes one-two-three-four the other goes one-two-three-one-two-three. Yes if you pretend that the measures in TDS are only two beats long and that the actual beats are the triplets you could notate it in 6/8 but you only have to listen to the song to see that the measures are definitely not two beats long, but rather four.

Play Are You Gonna Be My Girl for your piano teacher or something I dunno.

[Ætheros]

I listened to them both. I can count one-two-three one-two-three on both of them (except when garden jumps into 5/8 of course). Although I see how it can be confusing since Garden is actually 3/4, not 6/8, and it has swung eighth notes.

You're counting 6 quarter notes per measure (well two actually, I mean the song is 220 BPM) in Garden, wheras each measure in TDS is made up of six eighth notes.

In fact, listen to garden again. That's what shuffle or swing or whatever you want to call it sounds like.

You can count 6/8 music one-two-three one-two-three, or one-two-three-four, that's what makes it unique as a time signature, and remarkably easy to spot.

So you're confusing 3/4 with 6/8, and 6/8 with 4/4 here.

[Xythar]

Originally Posted by Ætheros

In fact, listen to garden again. That's what shuffle or swing or whatever you want to call it sounds like.

Really? Didn't you say shuffle/swing whatever wasn't exact triplet timing?

"SWING WALTZ" garden

Looks like triplets to me. Look at measure 71 for example, how is that anything but triplet timing?

And no, each measure in TDS is not six "notes" long. If you want to go by notes and not beats then it's twelve. You can't just call it six and not have it feel like you're chopping each full measure in half.


Furthermore - the wikipedia article says 3/4 has more of a one-two one-two one-two feel (three groups of two) whereas 6/8 has a one-two-three one-two-three feel (two groups of three). Garden is definitely in the latter category, whereas something like ToyCube is in the former.

[Ætheros]

Originally Posted by Xythar

Really? Didn't you say shuffle/swing whatever wasn't exact triplet timing?

it doesn't have to be. It's generally more loose about exact timing, and leaves more to personal style, or the feel of the song.

Originally Posted by Xythar

Looks like triplets to me. Look at measure 71 for example, how is that anything but triplet timing?

It's triplet timing for sure, but a section or two of triplets doesn't mean a change in time signature necessarily. I believe I posted an example earlier of a 4/4 ong with a sections of triplets.

Originally Posted by Xythar

And no, each measure in TDS is not six "notes" long. If you want to go by notes and not beats then it's twelve. You can't just call it six and not have it feel like you're chopping each full measure in half.

Considering the tempo of the song, It wouldn't be chopping the measures in two at all, in fact you'd be doing quite the opposite. This would account for why you think it's in 4/4 though. The Deep Striker, at 173 BPM would have six eighth notes per single measure. What I am calling eighth notes you are calling triplets.

Either way, how is 12 eighth notes per measure closer to 4/4 than 6/8?

Originally Posted by Xythar

Furthermore - the wikipedia article says 3/4 has more of a one-two one-two one-two feel (three groups of two) whereas 6/8 has a one-two-three one-two-three feel (two groups of three). Garden is definitely in the latter category, whereas something like ToyCube is in the former.

3/4 timing would be three groups of two eighth notes. With swung eighth notes that is exactly what you would be getting from Garden. And it's the tempo that makes me say it's in 3/4 and not 6/4, but it's definitely not 6/8.

You're right though, ToyCube is 3/4
At least we're getting somewhere with that.