Songs/Charts in IIDX in time signatures other than 4/4

[dragonheartman]

Originally Posted by TOFU!!

Doesn't the fact that these songs are in IIDX give the time signatures away? :V

Just watch the white lines on the chart. They note the downbeat of the measure, so just count how many beats there are between measures.

The way I look at it, those white lines are just standardizing the measures to 4/4 so it makes it easier from a programmer's perspective to design the charts. Since 4/4 is the most common it would be easier from a design perspective to fit the notes to a measure than fit a certain measure to a particular arrangement of notes.

Stepmania does a similar thing if I recall for editing notes. No matter what, they are "divided" into this 4/4 sort of category but the actual time signature of a particular song can vary.

[Xythar]

Originally Posted by Ætheros

it doesn't have to be. It's generally more loose about exact timing, and leaves more to personal style, or the feel of the song.

More like, loose about exact timing unless you can use it to make a point in favour of your own argument As soon as I bring it up it's like OH NO SHUFFLE RHYTHM DEFINITELY ISN'T EXACT TRIPLETS

Originally Posted by Ætheros

It's triplet timing for sure, but a section or two of triplets doesn't mean a change in time signature necessarily. I believe I posted an example earlier of a 4/4 ong with a sections of triplets.

Just as well then that the entire song is in triplets which is quite clearly shown on the notechart I linked to. Measure 71 was just an example.

Originally Posted by Ætheros

Considering the tempo of the song, It wouldn't be chopping the measures in two at all, in fact you'd be doing quite the opposite. This would account for why you think it's in 4/4 though. The Deep Striker, at 173 BPM would have six eighth notes per single measure. What I am calling eighth notes you are calling triplets.

Either way, how is 12 eighth notes per measure closer to 4/4 than 6/8?

Because it doesn't have 12 eighth notes per measure. It has 8 eighth notes per measure played in a swung manner. Seriously listen to the freaking thing. Kick da-kick da-kick da-kick. There are occasionally sections that go da-da-da-kick but as you said just above, the occasional triplet does not a 6/8 song make.

Listening to the kicks alone should be enough to show that it's in 4/4 and that the measures are 4 kicks long. Ask anyone to listen to the song and ask if the measures sound like they are 2 or 4 kicks long to them. I think I know what they will say.

Originally Posted by Ætheros

3/4 timing would be three groups of two eighth notes. With swung eighth notes that is exactly what you would be getting from Garden. And it's the tempo that makes me say it's in 3/4 and not 6/4, but it's definitely not 6/8.

You're right though, ToyCube is 3/4
At least we're getting somewhere with that.

I'll accept 6/4 for garden, but that to me just seems like a case of bpm doubling.

I don't see how garden and ToyCube could be the same time signature based on your logic given that the beat in garden is subdivided into triplets and the beat in ToyCube is subdivided into straight 8ths. If you can count garden as swung 8ths then I don't see what makes TDS any different.

[Xythar]

Originally Posted by dragonheartman

The way I look at it, those white lines are just standardizing the measures to 4/4 so it makes it easier from a programmer's perspective to design the charts. Since 4/4 is the most common it would be easier from a design perspective to fit the notes to a measure than fit a certain measure to a particular arrangement of notes.

Stepmania does a similar thing if I recall for editing notes. No matter what, they are "divided" into this 4/4 sort of category but the actual time signature of a particular song can vary.

Except that not every IIDX song has the lines at 4/4:

"SWING WALTZ" garden Garden has them every 6 beats.
"ALTERNATIVE ETHNO POP" PentaCube Gt.(RX-Ver.S.P.L.) PentaCube has them every 5 beats.
"HARD TECHNO" Holic Holic has them every 3 and a half beats (as it's 7/8), except the parts that are a different time signature.

And so on.

[aroomwithaview]

Originally Posted by dragonheartman

those white lines are just standardizing the measures to 4/4 so it makes it easier from a programmer's perspective to design the charts.

there is as much truth in this statement as there are measure lines in 100% Minimoo-G

[dragonheartman]

My bad. Fail for making that assumption since it was something I noticed in SM more than anything.

Also from wikipedia. Might be relevant.

The conventions of musical notation typically allow for more than one written representation of a particular piece. The chosen time signature largely depends upon musical context, personal taste of the composer or transcriber, and the graphic layout on the written page
source

[Ætheros]

Okay okay, so I talked with my piano teacher about this, and she says that swing timing is not exact. It sounds like triplet timing, but the problem with TDS being in swung 4/4 is the eighth note runs (the one's you call triplets) which would be hard to score in swung 4/4, without simply switching to normal 4/4 and using triplets. Take measures 12 and 13 for example:
"NU STYLE GABBA" THE DEEP STRIKER

That would be impossible to write with a swung time signature. If you think otherwise, show me some sheet music or something that has triplets (that follow that rythmic pattern) in a swung 4/4 signature.

So it's one of two ways, the song is definitely not swung, but it could be written in 4/4 with only triplet notes, or it could be written in 6/8. Either way the sound would sound exactly the same. I simply feel it would be more probable (as does my instructor) that it would be written in 6/8. Anything else would overcomplicate something that is seriously elementary, and so unless you're a music theory professor or something, I doubt you have as much expertise on the subject as my instructor does.

EDIT: wow, you should really count the number of lines in each beat in that notechart. 6 per beat (16th notes) which I think proves my point exactly.

[Xythar]

I don't think people usually write gabba as sheet music so that one might be a little tricky.

If you can find something like "Are You Gonna Be My Girl?" written down then sure, or even some swing jazz with drumrolls.

Anyway like I said, TDS does have some triplet rolls and stuff, a lot of swing/shuffle music does. So? You said yourself that a few triplet sequences don't necessarily make the whole song 6/8. Whether it would be difficult to notate or not is basically moot because like I said, nobody's going to write gabba down as sheet music. You're trying to apply classical music rules to dance and electronica.

The reason that notechart has 6 lines per beat is because the song is mapped to triplets and they need some way to delineate that on the chart. Those lines do not show up in game, but there is a glow at the bottom of the note gauge that pulses to the beat and measure lines that scroll down. 4 pulses (and kicks aurally) to each measure line.

To quote wikipedia again:

Triplets are used in many styles of music including blues, rock and country[3]. The basic shuffle rhythm is created by "leaving out (resting) the middle note of each three-note triplet group."[3] This "triplet" idea allows composers and improvising soloists to include triplets in the melody without clashing with any rhythm patterns.

It's not uncommon to put triplets all over the place in swung/shuffled rhythms as you can see.

Why am I arguing this? Because I feel there is a clear distinction between TDS and something like garden or Rondo from Pop'n, which is what I would normally consider 6/8. They clearly have different measure lengths to TDS and I think it is incorrect to say that TDS' measures are only two kicks long when simply listening to the song will tell you otherwise.

I used to call swung songs like TDS and AYGBMG "6/8" but I was corrected on multiple occasions and I can definitely understand why.

How would you notate Garden?


edit: oh yeah, I'd also say Ballad For You is "real 6/8" even though the game treats it as 4/4 with a lower BPM.

[Ætheros]

Originally Posted by Xythar

I don't think people usually write gabba as sheet music so that one might be a little tricky.

If you can find something like "Are You Gonna Be My Girl?" written down then sure, or even some swing jazz with drumrolls.

Anyway like I said, TDS does have some triplet rolls and stuff, a lot of swing/shuffle music does. So? You said yourself that a few triplet sequences don't necessarily make the whole song 6/8. Whether it would be difficult to notate or not is basically moot because like I said, nobody's going to write gabba down as sheet music. You're trying to apply classical music rules to dance and electronica.

Well no, actually I’m to applying music theory, to music. It doesn’t matter the genre, and it doesn’t matter that no score of TDS or any gabber music for that matter exists. The song itself still has a time signature. And a melody. And a tempo. And all of the other things that make music, music. You yourself acknowledge the existence of measures in this song, and although we disagree on where those are, and that is a music theory application to this music.

Originally Posted by Xythar

The reason that notechart has 6 lines per beat is because the song is mapped to triplets and they need some way to delineate that on the chart. Those lines do not show up in game, but there is a glow at the bottom of the note gauge that pulses to the beat and measure lines that scroll down. 4 pulses (and kicks aurally) to each measure line.

Yes, I understand all of that, but my point here is that the song (well the chart anyway) is made out to be 4/4 with triplets, not swung 4/4. From this point I argue that aurally 4/4 with triplets is identical to 6/8, the latter being more common and probable.

Originally Posted by Xythar

To quote wikipedia again:


It's not uncommon to put triplets all over the place in swung/shuffled rhythms as you can see.

Why am I arguing this? Because I feel there is a clear distinction between TDS and something like garden or Rondo from Pop'n, which is what I would normally consider 6/8. They clearly have different measure lengths to TDS and I think it is incorrect to say that TDS' measures are only two kicks long when simply listening to the song will tell you otherwise.

I used to call swung songs like TDS and AYGBMG "6/8" but I was corrected on multiple occasions and I can definitely understand why.

I guess this would be another point in which we differ. I can definitely hear AYGBMG as swung 4/4, but TDS is completely different in my ears. I can clearly count off a one-two-three one-two-three pattern in TDS with ease, but it’s too much of a stretch to do that in AYGBMG.

Originally Posted by Xythar

How would you notate Garden?

Garden to me would be swung 6/4 probably (though I think I previously said 3/4) with sections of swung 5/4. I’m not going to write up a score for it though if that’s what you’re asking ;P

Originally Posted by Xythar

edit: oh yeah, I'd also say Ballad For You is "real 6/8" even though the game treats it as 4/4 with a lower BPM.

And basically that’s what I am suggesting they have done with TDS, Burning heat, etc…

[Xythar]

If time signature is the way in which the music is notated, then how can it have a time signature if it's never been notated? :P If you say it's 4/4 with triplets and that's the same as 6/8 (which, by the way, is actually the same as 12/8, not 6/8) then how would you know which was correct? I don't see how it's "easier" to write in 12/8, you'd still have to put rests all over the place. At least in swung 4/4 you can just write straight eighths and add in the triplet sections where appropriate.

Furthermore I did some googling for this and it seems that almost all electronic/dance music is produced in 4/4, other than experimental stuff. It makes sense considering that the signature element of dance music is a four-to-the-floor beat.

Why can't you count one-two-three on AYGBMG? All the drumrolls in the song follow a triplet pattern exactly. How is that any different to TDS following a swing for most of the song with the occasional triplet sequence?

And no, if I listen to Ballad For You and compare it to TDS they are very different in structure. BFY I can easily count off one-two-three on the melody (and the vocals, instruments etc all follow it - there's no swinging to be seen) whereas TDS is as I have described it, one-two-three-four with a swing and occasional triplets.

[Patashu]

DDR example:
Paranoia ETERNAL has 7/8 sections, e.g. from the beginning, as well as a section of alternating 6/8 8/8 and is otherwise in 8/8.
I -think- there are other paranoias in odd time signatures, too.

I'm not sure if this is in a bemani game, but it's a TaQ song: Among the rhythmic mess that is Cynic I can detect 6/4 and 4/4 parts. I actually think that the whole song is in only these time signatures!

[word]

Could someone move this to "Other Bemani Discussion" ? This thread is annoying me..

[Ætheros]

Alright well I'm sick and tired of arguing here. I can definitely tell the song is in 6/8, that's apparent just from counting the goddamn thing. Where you get the idea that it's swung, and has random triplet runs is beyond me. I've discussed the matter with people who I know know what they are talking about, and they agree with me that it's a 6/8 song. 6/8 timing is actually quite common in dance music too. It's the pulse every three beats that allows for use of the typical four-on-the-floor pattern, so It's not completely unconventional (especially in gabber, freeform, and hardcore techno).

It really doesn't take a whole lot of analyzing to figure this shit out.

Not that it isn't completely trivial anyway.

[Exagon]

The entire premise of this thread is wrong to begin with. The notion of time signature works in baroque and classical music nicely because music was much more rigidly structured back then. But in the modern era, it's somewhat foolhardy to try and apply these classifications to modern music which does not necessarily follow any conventions. All that is important to know is how many beats there are per bar, and how many bars form a phrase. Specification beyond that starts to be wrong.

[Patashu]

Isn't that what time signatures do; determine how many beats per bar there are?

Notes per beat per bar per phrase sounds pleasingly complete, though. Mmm...

[Exagon]

Originally Posted by Patashu

Isn't that what time signatures do; determine how many beats per bar there are?

Notes per beat per bar per phrase sounds pleasingly complete, though. Mmm...

Yes, except that they have nuances that don't really apply to modern music, such as which beats get emphasized. So it's better to keep it strictly mathematical.