I need real (in depth) feedback on the US DDRX Cabinets

[eddie]

I'm in a position now where I can possibly pass consumer and personal feedback onto Konami Japan directly and given that the biggest issue we're currently having is with the US DDRX cabs, I want to send them a report. In order to give them something that will actually impact the game in the US I need well written opinions (they will be reworded in the report I send) along with images of problem areas and videos showcasing how apparent and game impacting these issues are.

I also ready have the impressions from 2 members on my staff and a handful of others, but I want them from everyone I can get them from. You can either post in this thread or shoot me an e-mail (eddie [at] bemanistyle.com).

[Empathy]

I feel the most major flaw with them is the force required to activate them and how the arrow has to be hit. The new pads force me to play more on my heels than I like, and even then its really difficult to keep freeze arrows down. The pads seem like they don't have enough sensors in the arrow. That's my pad frustrations at least, the screen lag is the other part. To sum up:

- Too much force is necessary for me to register a hit, and I'm 135lbs.
- Keeping freeze arrows held is now a chore. Maybe more senors could remedy this?
- VERY minute shifts in weight can cause arrows to double trigger or break.
- The plexi panels for the arrows slip a lot, and I've almost fallen because of this. Especially on the down arrow.
- The pads just all around lack the feel of the older pads, I get caught on the "brackets" of the new pad frequently, and the difference in the feel makes my legs get tired more quickly, it's like the new pads don't have the same rebound when you kick off a panel.

I also noticed this at SVGL where the machine is on tile rather than carpet like it is at MGL, the machine is so damn light that after a few hours of play the machine has rotated several degrees. The older machines never moved at all.

[Kσn]

I can point out a list of flaws for you since I have personally played on a machine.

-Censors are VERY bad, maybe its the panels too, but I have never had to nail a arrow as hard as I could to get a pad to register. When you play the game and realize you are not hitting any of the arrows... something is wrong.
-LAG... Did anyone even look at the game when they shipped it out? It even looks like the demonstration struggles, because I only see the demo get Greats also. Its not audio lag either, its monitor lag. Too bad no one can play the game blindfolded to get high scores so the lag proves to be a large problem.
-Maybe its just me, but the pads play way different then the old ones as far as positioning yourself go. I feel like I have to lean farther out now when I play DDR X then when I played SuperNOVA or older games.
-Holds are impossible to hold down now. When my friend who is 220 pounds can't hold down arrows... Then someone made a huge mistake when making these pads.
-Great... you made the pads without brackets... but the panels slide so its pointless.
-Sound System pretty much sucks, SuperNOVA is just as loud if not louder then DDR X.
-The lights are so small their pointless. I was very disappointed when I saw the downgraded cabinet with no light sticks, led Lights, or the correct lighting for the subwoofers. These small changes to the cabinet make it more fun to play and attractive to look at.
-No e-amuse, No way of obtaining updates, and no explanation for the USB Slots. Are they even usable, if so how do I even go along using it?

I also have a few videos of when I played to show other how much I stuggled on the new cabinet...
YouTube - Kon Plays Saber Wing (A) on a Dance Dance Revolution X Dedicab (Expert)
^Saber Wing (A), I got a PFC on the Test cabinet in Naperville, but I can't even AA it it after 10 rounds of playing on the new cabinet. Once again, there is a huge problem with the lag.
YouTube - Kon Plays Why Not (AA) on a DDR X Dedicab (Expert)
^Why Not (AA). I AAA this song every time I play it normally, I could barely manage a AA even when going to the music.

So to start off with, fix the lag. I know the pads can be fixed easily if they are REALLY worked on. The I would worry about the pads, e-amuse, and then the other small problems.

Also Thank you Konami (and Eddie, for talking to them) for actually wanting to hear eveyones thoughts on the new cabinet, because there are some major issues.

[eddie]

Originally Posted by ΩOMEGAΩ

I can point out a list of flaws for you since I have personally played on a machine.

-Censors are VERY bad, maybe its the panels too, but I have never had to nail a arrow as hard as I could to get a pad to register. When you play the game and realize you are not hitting any of the arrows... something is wrong.
-LAG... Did anyone even look at the game when they shipped it out? It even looks like the demonstration struggles, because I only see the demo get Greats also. Its not audio lag either, its monitor lag. Too bad no one can play the game blindfolded to get high scores so the lag proves to be a large problem.
-Maybe its just me, but the pads play way different then the old ones as far as positioning yourself go. I feel like I have to lean farther out now when I play DDR X then when I played SuperNOVA or older games.
-Holds are impossible to hold down now. When my friend who is 220 pounds can't hold down arrows... Then someone made a huge mistake when making these pads.
-Great... you made the pads without brackets... but the panels slide so its pointless.
-Sound System pretty much sucks, SuperNOVA is just as loud if not louder then DDR X.
-The lights are so small their pointless. I was very disappointed when I saw the downgraded cabinet with no light sticks, led Lights, or the correct lighting for the subwoofers. These small changes to the cabinet make it more fun to play and attractive to look at.
-No e-amuse, No way of obtaining updates, and no explanation for the USB Slots. Are they even usable, if so how do I even go along using it?

I also have a few videos of when I played to show other how much I stuggled on the new cabinet...
YouTube - Kon Plays Saber Wing (A) on a Dance Dance Revolution X Dedicab (Expert)
^Saber Wing (A), I got a PFC on the Test cabinet in Naperville, but I can't even AA it it after 10 rounds of playing on the new cabinet. Once again, there is a huge problem with the lag.
YouTube - Kon Plays Why Not (AA) on a DDR X Dedicab (Expert)
^Why Not (AA). I AAA this song every time I play it normally, I could barely manage a AA even when going to the music.

So to start off with, fix the lag. I know the pads can be fixed easily if they are REALLY worked on. The I would worry about the pads, e-amuse, and then the other small problems.

Also Thank you Konami (and Eddie, for talking to them) for actually wanting to hear eveyones thoughts on the new cabinet, because there are some major issues.

I never said Konami approached me, I just stated that I'm in a position where I can send your feedback to someone at KOJ that will actually read it. Please don't misconstrue that.

Either way, thanks for all of the input, please keep it coming. I have about one week to get a solid presentation together.

[Kσn]

Originally Posted by eddie

I never said Konami approached me, I just stated that I'm in a position where I can send your feedback to someone at KOJ that will actually read it. Please don't misconstrue that.

Either way, thanks for all of the input, please keep it coming. I have about one week to get a solid presentation together.

oh alright. I think I pretty much nailed anything I could think of, hopefully when they read what the community has to say something real good will come out of it.

[mic130]

I think they should add more songs and SD card instead of the USB

[Ashura96]

Originally Posted by mic130

I think they should add more songs

Really now...

[eddie]

Originally Posted by mic130

I think they should add more songs and SD card instead of the USB

Too bad this thread has nothing to do with what you want them to do. I'm looking for reports on the problems with the machines themselves (pads, screen, etc.) not the game.

[zodiak_911]

The pads are as everyone say... You have to hit them too hard to even register a single step. Freezes simply can't be held... The screen lag is awful, sometimes the arrows come too early sometimes too soon... I hope that Konami can give us an update, or something to repair this and that the next US AC version can not be as flawed as this...

[-Viper-]

I'll jump in right in here since I've played on one of their machines. Theres not much that hasn't been said already, but I figure that if they get a lot of the same complaints they'll be forced to listen.

I've played on the machine at my gameworks in phoenix AZ. Honestly, although the machine looks fantastic, the game itself is next to unplayable. I have trouble getting a B grade on some songs that I would usually get an AA grade on if I were playing on Supernova 2 (upgraded from Supernova of course, the SN2 dedicabs are horrible as well from what I hear).

The pads on X feel low to the ground and rather uncomfortable to play on. I've seen several people complain that the inner frame of the pads is made of wood, which would not surprise me as it feels very awkward. The surface is made of a single sheet of metal with holes where the buttons themselfs are exposed. This too makes the pad feel terrible as it's very easy to get you foot caught up on the corner of the sensor. The sensors themselves are an abomination. They require a huge amount of force and even if my accuracy is dead on, it hands out greats and even goods or boo's very often. Freeze arrows often do not register if held of more than a second even when your foot is flat on the pad. If not for the fact that X's life meter seems much more forgiving than Supernova 2 and before, it would be very difficult to so much as pass the easiest of songs on Expert difficulty.

As for the screen, there is a noticable lag. It isn't too horrible, and it doesn't take terribly long to adjust to it, but we still shouldn't have to put up with it. However, one thing that should be fixed (although this doesn't have to do with the machine itself), are those Marvelous stars. They are very distracting during gameplay and I really wish they would've been removed on the US version since we do not have E-Amuse to keep track of Marvelous counts anyway.

Last thing thats been said many times but needs to be said again. Lose that announcer. It is seriously embarrasing to play on the machine because of that obnoxious voice and the horribly written phrases.

[OmegaDoom2006]

I have not yet play on these machines myself but I know people in my community that had so I'll post what they have been saying.

Everything that had been mention before is what they have mention as well. The problems with the HD Lag, the problems with the pads, the announcer itself.

What Konami needs to know is that even the casual players are seeing these problems and as more and more of the news of these cabs reach out to arcades in US and Canada, DDR's rep in the arcade will get weaker and weaker, if Konami doesn't get a handle on this problem and start treating the US/Canada Communities with the same respect as the Japan Communities, more and more players and arcades will turn their back on DDR for other games such as ITG or Pump It Up for example and very likely won't turn back.

[Silph Co.]

Originally Posted by ΩOMEGAΩ

-Censors

[Kalek]

here is what i think about these cabinets after having played on one extensively (at gameworks in columbus, oh):

HD lag is a BIG BIG BIG problem. i randomed mugen on final stage to try to get extra stage last week, got 48 greats fc, didn't AA it, and didn't get extra stage. on sn1 years ago i got 2 on mugen and i'm much better at ddr now than i was then.

we couldn't get edits working here. renamed the file saved from x jp to have a U instead of a J and the drives didn't even light up when plugging them in. plus, isn't a menu supposed to show up for this? we didn't get it here

many feel that the pads feel like poorly built home pads (cobalts fluxes, tx pads, etc). in fact, it seemed like mostly everyone who i knew who played it thought that. personally, i think they feel tons worse than old ddr pads, but not quite as bad as the above mentioned home pads.

before the "sensor update", on the first day the cabinet was even out on the floor, the pads were in horrid condition. the "better side" was still bad and took excessive force. my knees were sore that day because i'm not used to having to stomp that hard.

after the "sensor update", which pad was better had switched. the right pad that was better before now had a sticking arrow, while the left playable but one of the arrows obviously had to be stomped on harder than the others. the day after that, the arrow had worsened and the left was now hardly playable, while the right had become decent, but not perfect by any means. one week after, the left was still worsening, and the right was hard to full combo anything on.

also, all of the lighting was obviously stolen from guitar hero ac. the marquee lights are exactly the same, and the bass lights are the same idea (although GH has four sets of LEDs rather than the two DDR has). they don't really look good, and definitely aren't any improvement over the old cabinet's lighting. no LED bar under the monitor or light sticks like the japanese cabinet. also the buttons on the cabinet itself don't light up with the exception of the start buttons. the feature in x that shows what buttons are usable in menus by lighting them up is completely absent because of this.

a lot of reviews have said the sound system isn't very good, although i can't honestly say i can hear it well enough to tell! gameworks columbus is a loud place. however, sn, pump, and extreme are all louder than x in the arcade.

overall, this cabinet is really bad. at this gameworks, everyone is sticking to the pump it up nx, and the two ddr machines (sn1 and extreme) if they want to play dance games. even the beginners seem to be opting for sn or extreme rather than x. as far as i know, on this cabinet, two sdgs have been obtained: me with 2 greats on reach up (which i consider a complete fluke since my counts aren't generally lower than 20 on this cabinet) and ranatalus with 7 on koko soko. no pfcs have been obtained at all, and this is in a city where most prominent members of the community have 200+ AAAs/PFCs.

[Kσn]

Sorry for another long second post.

I also want to point out how the game has been received by players, and guests at the Gameworks DDR X arcade machine.

DDR X definitely gets the most attention, obviously because you can tell its newer, and it has songs that are noticeable by the average American. All seems well as players navigate through the menus until actual gameplay hits. (Keep in mind I'm just pointing about random people I see playing the machine at Gameworks, not any great DDR Players or anything) Once gameplay starts most people who have played before notice some problems immediately, and just wait for the fail screen to kick in, or wait until the entire 3 rounds are over before they leave.

New players to the game at Gameworks tap the arrows very gently when they first play which does not work out at all because the censors are broken, or dont work. The newcomers will most likely continue playing as there is no fail screen for beginners mode.

Experienced players (people who have played the game before) seem to notice the problems a little faster. It wont usually end in failure because you can still get greats, but these players are also aware and dont usually stick around to play another round.

And of course the expert players are either on the game, or off of it. I mean we REALLY want to play the game, but its just not possible. All Expert players notice problems almost immediately, and try to play the game only to the music. Sure I will play DDR X a couple times when I go the Gameworks, as well as other Expert players, however its just not worth spending the money when you can choose from three other mixes to play on or the 100 other machines on location.

I often will also find credits already inputted into the machine from previous players who played. However this could just be because the machine is on Joint Premium.

So just how well is DDR X doing at gameworks? Well actually its almost never left alone after 3 P.M. on weekends, but usually the same players never play on it more then once or twice unless all the other machines are being used.

I also wanted to review certain aspects of the machine in a scale 1-10 as I did not before.

Presentation (Cabinet, Game, Graphics)- 6.5, while the game gets a fresh upgrade to the new PC hardware and almost nothing is changed from the Japanese counterpart gameplay/hardware wise we got an extreme downgrade on the cabinet. We get cheap LED lights, and we are missing the LED Sticks and lights as well as the correct lighting on the subwoofers. Looks extremely dull compared to the Japanese cabinet.

Gameplay (Being able to play, aspects of playing)- 3.5, the word broken can not even begin to describe the many problems DDR X faces. The pads dont work, and there is video lag. One extra point for actually being able to play to the music on the machine.

Sound- 8, well I can at least play the the music if I smash the panels inside out. The machine can be really loud while standing right in front of it, but when you walk to the sides of the machine you will start to notice the sounds system is almost on par with the old cabinets, however the audio does come in nice and clear.

Replay Value (Will we be back for more?)- 2.5, Its hard to say no to a game that has so much going for it but the problems the game faces will make you want to go play something else.

Overall value- 3, Its not worth arcade operators money to spend money on this game when you can not play it. Its also not worth any money you put into the machine either. Unless you are a place like Gameworks dont plan on making any money off this thing. Even if you were to fix the pads the video lag is so atrocious that there would not even be a point. Hopefully Betson has noticed these problems right now and are making a plan to fix them.

[tornupsock]

^ Dude, sensor.

In any case, I liked the feel while playing doubles, as that was the first thing I did. The pads didn't move when I played, but that could be in part of how that particular arcade took care of it.

The smoothness was a good idea. Sensor amount/type/implementation wasn't.