Release DDR every two years instead of one

[hello271]

I don't think anyone will argue that DDR X is a step down in quality, in terms of songlist. There are barely any crossovers, good KOs/licenses are still few and far in-between, and we still only get a handful of 15+ foot charts in the release.

Yet, what is Konami to do? DDR sells fewer and fewer copies every year, and it makes no sense for them to pour MORE money into the next mix, to get more KOs and more crossovers and more charts.

So the solution I thought up of: Release DDR every two years instead of every year. Let's consider why this will help.

1. Konami can put more songs into every mix. More KOs, more Crossovers, more boss songs (or just hard songs), maybe even a new difficulty. We get a really quality mix of around 100 - 120 songs for each CS release, and maybe 20-30 charts with 15+ ratings instead of 5-6.

2. Konami will probably save money, so that's incentive for Konami.

3. Konami will sell many more copies. This is because a) there is pent-up demand, remember how popular SuperNova was (relatively) because there hasn't been a new mix in so long? About half the arcades around the countries have upgraded. How about SuperNova 2? Not nearly as popular. b) people like fewer versions. Does anyone like 360's multiple SKUs? Or Windows Vista's multiple SKUs? People like having fewer, stable iterations, instead of a million versions that will just confuse them. Also, do casuals really need to buy a new DDR every year? Of course not. But if Konami release QUALITY DDR versions every two years, that will interest the casuals much more, because the older version will be much more outdated.

4. This will increase the longevity of DDR as a series. People won't get sick of it as quickly because every version will be a full step forward, not the same thing year after year.

And what have we got to lose? Okay, the obvious, one mix every two years instead of two. But so what? Look at DDR X. It's a pretty half-assed mix anyway. It's not even half the mix Extreme was, maybe not even SuperNova. I'd take Extreme's quality of songlist every two years versus two DDR X.

[Corootai_dolphin]

while that would be good i don't think their'll learn untill they nearly lose the series.

[ranatalus]

Originally Posted by hello271

I don't think anyone will argue that DDR X is a step down in quality, in terms of songlist. There are barely any crossovers, good KOs/licenses are still few and far in-between, and we still only get a handful of 15+ foot charts in the release.

Contrary to popular belief by the "hardcore" community, Konami's target audience IS the tween/teen girls that will buy each mix, play their favorite licenses over and over and only occasionally venture into the KO area, typically by accident.

Yet, what is Konami to do? DDR sells fewer and fewer copies every year, and it makes no sense for them to pour MORE money into the next mix, to get more KOs and more crossovers and more charts.

DDR games still sell quite well, otherwise they wouldn't be making them. If I remember correctly, every US console release from Extreme back (yes, including the horrible mix that was US Extreme) and possibly Extreme2 has gone BEST HITS.

So the solution I thought up of: Release DDR every two years instead of every year. Let's consider why this will help.

1. Konami can put more songs into every mix. More KOs, more Crossovers, more boss songs (or just hard songs), maybe even a new difficulty. We get a really quality mix of around 100 - 120 songs for each CS release, and maybe 20-30 charts with 15+ ratings instead of 5-6.

You are absolutely right, they COULD put more songs into each mix--but what would their incentive for doing this be? Why make one release when they could easily stretch that content across 2 or 3 versions and have you buy (pirate) 3 games instead of 1? Do you think they hate money or something?

2. Konami will probably save money, so that's incentive for Konami.

How would they save money? If anything, they'd lose immense amounts of money from lost sales.

3. Konami will sell many more copies.

I doubt there would be a significant increase in the number of copies sold, assuming that in that 2 year span they weren't completely forgotten about.

This is because a) there is pent-up demand, remember how popular SuperNova was (relatively) because there hasn't been a new mix in so long?

There was also over a 3 year gap in release there, with the general public having accepted that the game was over and done with. You can't recreate that kind of event.

About half the arcades around the countries have upgraded.

This is a number pulled out of your ass that you are trying to throw off as fact. California has 191 EXTREME machines, compared to 66 SuperNOVA machines. This is probably indicative of the rest of the United states as a whole--some areas might have more or less but I would say that is a good average.

How about SuperNova 2? Not nearly as popular.

Or it could be the fact that the entirety of a SuperNOVA 2 upgrade kit is a marquee, a DVD, and a security chip which caries a ridiculous price tag of roughly $2500.

b) people like fewer versions. Does anyone like 360's multiple SKUs? Or Windows Vista's multiple SKUs? People like having fewer, stable iterations, instead of a million versions that will just confuse them.

That doesn't really apply here. It's not like you can choose between SN 1.3 or SN 1.56 or SN give-you-a-blowjob mix.

Also, do casuals really need to buy a new DDR every year? Of course not. But if Konami release QUALITY DDR versions every two years, that will interest the casuals much more, because the older version will be much more outdated.

I don't think you've dealt with young teenagers much, or don't remember what it was like to be one yourself. They ALWAYS want new things. Things are outdated within a month or two.

4. This will increase the longevity of DDR as a series. People won't get sick of it as quickly because every version will be a full step forward, not the same thing year after year.

"Increasing longevity" is not the same as "dragging your feet to make the same amount of content appear to last longer. It's like saying that if you have enough food to eat for 3 days and don't eat as frequently but eat more when you do, you are somehow going to survive on that 3 days of food longer

And what have we got to lose? Okay, the obvious, one mix every two years instead of two. But so what? Look at DDR X. It's a pretty half-assed mix anyway. It's not even half the mix Extreme was, maybe not even SuperNova. I'd take Extreme's quality of songlist every two years versus two DDR X.

To be fair, EXTREME was supposed to be the equivalent of Beatmania THE FINAL. There weren't supposed to be arcade versions after it. They had planned to be done with it, and as such, put an extraordinary amount of effort into it to make it last (and it did--we are still running EXTREME tournaments over 6 years later!). Along with that, DDR X is Konami's attempt to take things in a different direction (which I don't like but hey, I'm not in charge).

Also, perhaps I'm misunderstanding your wording but you seem to be implying that SuperNOVA is a better mix than EXTREME?

Lastly, while I agree that DDR X US CS is very poor, the arcade version appears to be much better.

[Blackraven]

^^^
ranatalus brings some solid and interesting points here. Anyways thanks indeed for your added insights and opinions on the matter.

For me personally: I wouldn't care one way or the other (though if they plan to extend the lifespan, then they obviously have to add more content to keep players busy). Though, as always, in the end, it is KONAMI who has the final say on such matters and decisions.

[Dream Traveler Klonoa]

Originally Posted by ranatalus

Contrary to popular belief by the "hardcore" community, Konami's target audience IS the tween/teen girls that will buy each mix, play their favorite licenses over and over and only occasionally venture into the KO area, typically by accident.

Would it be possible for them to accommodate both demographics by releasing separate games for the different crowds? You could have DDR games that cater to younger crowds that like things such as The Disney Channel or Nickelodeon, DDR games that cater to the hardcore Bemani crowd with releases like the Ultramix/Universe series or arcade-similar CS releases like Extreme JP, and DDR games that hit in-between, much in the way the current console releases do now.

DDR games still sell quite well, otherwise they wouldn't be making them. If I remember correctly, every US console release from Extreme back (yes, including the horrible mix that was US Extreme) and possibly Extreme2 has gone BEST HITS.

DDR Extreme US CS was not that bad, as we got some awesome songs like Bizarre Love Triangle, the framework for DDR Festival, and the removal of the MAX-era frame borders, giving us full-screen videos. Given what it was technically supposed to be, though, it was fairly lackluster.

You are absolutely right, they COULD put more songs into each mix--but what would their incentive for doing this be? Why make one release when they could easily stretch that content across 2 or 3 versions and have you buy (pirate) 3 games instead of 1? Do you think they hate money or something?

Personally, I think a lazy yet effective method for increasing song-count for CS releases that should be taken advantage of more often are classic revivals. They could bring back some of the songs from Konamix and introduce the Club Mix Another charts. I'm not a fan of the way Konami appears to be trying to slowly remove Club Mix from its arcade releases by eliminating songs like 20,november, celebrate, Dr.LOVE, jam jam reggae, ska a go go, and be in my paradise (given, they did keep things like 5.1.1. and Luv to me (DISCO MIX), but still). I'd love to see the Club Mix version of Brilliant2U on a US CS, as well as songs like g.m.d. and Beginning of Life. Nostalgia is just as powerful a selling tool as new content.

From here, I'm just going to toss out random ideas and discussion.

Downloadable content is the best way to keep things from getting stale. Unfortunately, it can only go so far, but it would be a good way to drag on a certain game for an extended period of time while the next game is being produced, especially if the content consists of revivals and such (as listed in the previous paragraph). Sadly, this isn't really possible for PS2 CS releases, and we don't really know where the future of next-gen Bemani is headed. DDR and pop'n have initial outings on next-gen consoles, but three Universe games and a crap pop'n-esque demo don't really amount to much. We'll have to see where the future official arcade releases start appearing on home consoles, and then we can probably further suggest possible strategies for improving home version quality.

In between DDR games, Konami could attempt once again to try to get back into the US music game market. Unfortunately for them, they haven't had the best outing outside of DDR with Rock Revolution being completely overshadowed by the Rock Band and Guitar Hero properties, with IIDX being so niche and underground that it can't grab any real attention, and with beat'n'groovy being so damn abysmal that even people who have a DJ Azure-style love for Beyond the Earth can't justify purchasing it. The best answer is to try something new for the US market. This could involve taking IIDX and making it significantly easier with a songlist of popular licenses with very few (and only the most popular) Konami Originals thrown in the mix (that upcoming 5-key clone looks to have the right idea), or it could involve creating an entirely new game with an instrument that hasn't been utilized yet. Why not a Keyboardmania revival? Or maybe something that isn't even an instrument at all like Ubeat? Or hell, a Mad Maestro-style game? There are numorous possibilities; it just sucks how the American video game market is so incredibly picky. Judging by most YouTube comments (which sadly is a pretty good place to get general ideas about opinions), if the game isn't GH/RB, it's not worth their time, and something has to change that.

I'm not even sure where I'm headed at this point. Enjoy the words.

[Ashura96]

Originally Posted by ranatalus

Also, perhaps I'm misunderstanding your wording but you seem to be implying that SuperNOVA is a better mix than EXTREME?

lol. But actually I hold a slight preference of a SN or SN2 to EX.
Why? Cause I am sick of playing on an old ass machine, almost all of them being in terrible condition (that's how it is here) and the songs, most of which are all on SN and SN2 anyways.

So unless you just love spamming Cartoon Heroes, Speed Over Beethoven and Last Message, then I personally see no point in sticking with Extreme.

Also there are a ton of aesthetic problems with Extreme as well (bg animations, sound quality) and with that I'd rather play MAX2 over EXTREME as well.

[dickrazor]

I'd rather play 5th Mix than everything after it due to how AWESOME the songlist is, but you don't hear me griping about how everything between MAX and SN didn't have dancers. Everyone will have a preference.

[Ashura96]

Originally Posted by deathrazor

I'd rather play 5th Mix than everything after it due to how AWESOME the songlist is, but you don't hear me griping about how everything between MAX and SN didn't have dancers. Everyone will have a preference.

I would too....except I don't believe there has ever been a 5th mix machine around here, ever.

[ranatalus]

Originally Posted by Dream Traveler Klonoa

Would it be possible for them to accommodate both demographics by releasing separate games for the different crowds? You could have DDR games that cater to younger crowds that like things such as The Disney Channel or Nickelodeon, DDR games that cater to the hardcore Bemani crowd with releases like the Ultramix/Universe series or arcade-similar CS releases like Extreme JP, and DDR games that hit in-between, much in the way the current console releases do now.

There are two problems with making a home version that is "catered" towards the hardcore crowd:

1) the target market is far too small

2) large portions of the hardcore market do not, in general, purchase or play home versions.

DDR Extreme US CS was not that bad...Given what it was technically supposed to be, though, it was fairly lackluster.

Yeah that is the main point I was going for; I absolutely hate the interface to be honest.

Personally, I think a lazy yet effective method for increasing song-count for CS releases that should be taken advantage of more often are classic revivals. They could bring back some of the songs from Konamix and introduce the Club Mix Another charts. I'm not a fan of the way Konami appears to be trying to slowly remove Club Mix from its arcade releases by eliminating songs like 20,november, celebrate, Dr.LOVE, jam jam reggae, ska a go go, and be in my paradise (given, they did keep things like 5.1.1. and Luv to me (DISCO MIX), but still). I'd love to see the Club Mix version of Brilliant2U on a US CS, as well as songs like g.m.d. and Beginning of Life. Nostalgia is just as powerful a selling tool as new content.

I kind of agree but it seems like lately Konami has been trying to get rid of a lot of their older songs, so I don't see that happening.

[hello271]

Contrary to popular belief by the "hardcore" community, Konami's target audience IS the tween/teen girls that will buy each mix, play their favorite licenses over and over and only occasionally venture into the KO area, typically by accident.

Except the target audience of casuals do NOT buy each mix. Find people who have every mix since DDRMAX. That person is more likely to be a hardcore DDR player than a casual. How many casuals do you know that own every mix? I don't. They usually buy one or two games and that's it.

DDR games still sell quite well, otherwise they wouldn't be making them. If I remember correctly, every US console release from Extreme back (yes, including the horrible mix that was US Extreme) and possibly Extreme2 has gone BEST HITS.

I'm going to take sales numbers in NA from VGChartz (which aren't that accurate, but I can't find them anywhere else):

DDRMAX2: 1.09m
Extreme2: 0.92m
SuperNova: 0.83m
SuperNova2: 0.62m
DDR X: 0.21m (so far)

The numbers are clearly dropping, and dropping fast. And is it any surprise? We get basically the same old game every year, with a few tweaks and a lackluster songlist.

You are absolutely right, they COULD put more songs into each mix--but what would their incentive for doing this be? Why make one release when they could easily stretch that content across 2 or 3 versions and have you buy (pirate) 3 games instead of 1? Do you think they hate money or something?

Because CONTENT MATTERS. A better quality game = more sales. Otherwise, why not just have 40 songs, and pump out 5 or 6 versions?

How would they save money? If anything, they'd lose immense amounts of money from lost sales.

By only releasing one version every two years, they would save a lot of money by developing only one game, and also licensing fewer songs, fewer charts, etc. than by having two versions. In other words, something like a really good CS with 110 songs instead of two lackluster CS with 70-80 songs each.

There was also over a 3 year gap in release there, with the general public having accepted that the game was over and done with. You can't recreate that kind of event.

Yeah, having the general public accept that the game was over and done with, and having many move on to ITG, actually hurt SuperNova. But a longer gap = higher demand (to a certain extent). This is still true.

This is a number pulled out of your ass that you are trying to throw off as fact. California has 191 EXTREME machines, compared to 66 SuperNOVA machines. This is probably indicative of the rest of the United states as a whole--some areas might have more or less but I would say that is a good average.

I should have added "from my experience." But okay, so what? A fourth of the Extreme machines have been upgraded. Whatever. It's still a huge number compared to the number of SuperNova 2 machines. How many of those are in CA? 10 maybe? 15? The simple fact is most arcade owners cannot afford to upgrade every year (or don't care to).

Or it could be the fact that the entirety of a SuperNOVA 2 upgrade kit is a marquee, a DVD, and a security chip which caries a ridiculous price tag of roughly $2500.

A SuperNova upgrade kit also ran over $2000 if I remember right, so it's not that different. Upgrade kits always get more expensive with every version.

That doesn't really apply here. It's not like you can choose between SN 1.3 or SN 1.56 or SN give-you-a-blowjob mix.

Except you can go to any electronics store and pick up DDR X, DDR SuperNova 2, or DDR SuperNova. Some stores still have DDRMAX, MAX2, Extreme, and Extreme 2. They're also easy to find online. And that's just for people with one system.

I don't think you've dealt with young teenagers much, or don't remember what it was like to be one yourself. They ALWAYS want new things. Things are outdated within a month or two.

Yeah, if the thing is actually new. Having the same game come out year after year is not exactly enticing to teenagers.

"Increasing longevity" is not the same as "dragging your feet to make the same amount of content appear to last longer. It's like saying that if you have enough food to eat for 3 days and don't eat as frequently but eat more when you do, you are somehow going to survive on that 3 days of food longer

By having every iteration of DDR actually be different, a step forward, with new features, and a solid list of new songs, it will make each DDR game appear much fresher. Also, if DDR keeps pumping out games really fast, in a few years it will likely run out of steam. By slowing it down, and making sure every game is a quality release, that will help the series's longevity.

To be fair, EXTREME was supposed to be the equivalent of Beatmania THE FINAL. There weren't supposed to be arcade versions after it. They had planned to be done with it, and as such, put an extraordinary amount of effort into it to make it last (and it did--we are still running EXTREME tournaments over 6 years later!). Along with that, DDR X is Konami's attempt to take things in a different direction (which I don't like but hey, I'm not in charge).

First of all, there's no arbitrary reason that Konami can only put a lot of effort into a DDR game if it's the last game (or supposedly the last game). For example, a lot more effort is clearly put into every new IIDX game than every DDR game. Extreme didn't take years and years to make. It came out in the arcades 9 months after Max2 did. So I certainly don't think it's unreasonable to expect Konami to be able to churn out an Extreme-level game in 2 years.

But even if were to accept your assertion, then I should at least be able to expect Konami to pump out a game on the same level of Max2, or SuperNova. But DDR X is not even close to those two games. And if Konami's response is "well DDR is getting less popular," then maybe that's Konami's fault. After all, Konami puts a lot more effort into each IIDX and Pop'n version, and I don't hear those games dying out.

Also, perhaps I'm misunderstanding your wording but you seem to be implying that SuperNOVA is a better mix than EXTREME?

Lastly, while I agree that DDR X US CS is very poor, the arcade version appears to be much better.

No, I meant "DDX isn't half the mix Extreme was, and maybe not even half the mix SuperNova was." Although I might be stretching it with SuperNova.

And I don't see how the arcade version can be much better than DDR X US if DDR X US has most of the new songs in the arcade version.

[Pie-kun]

rantalus really hit the nail on the head so to speak.

Except the target audience of casuals do NOT buy each mix. Find people who have every mix since DDRMAX. That person is more likely to be a hardcore DDR player than a casual. How many casuals do you know that own every mix? I don't. They usually buy one or two games and that's it.

Of course ALL casuals don't tend to buy every mix, but the pool of casual players is WAY bigger than the pool of hardcore players, so they don't need to attract all of the casual players, just a sizable chunk for every game.

I'm going to take sales numbers in NA from VGChartz (which aren't that accurate, but I can't find them anywhere else):

DDRMAX2: 1.09m
Extreme2: 0.92m
SuperNova: 0.83m
SuperNova2: 0.62m
DDR X: 0.21m (so far)

The numbers are clearly dropping, and dropping fast. And is it any surprise? We get basically the same old game every year, with a few tweaks and a lackluster songlist.

A few things to consider with those numbers:

1. MAX2 has been out longer than Extreme 2, which has been out longer than SuperNOVA, which has been out longer than SuperNOVA2, which has been out longer than X. It should not be a surprise that games that have been out longer have sold more copies, especially when they go on to $19.99 BEST HITS.

Here's what I can gather from the VG Charts Data

MAX 2: ???
Extreme 2: ~180 Weeks of sales data
SuperNOVA: ~130 Weeks of sales data
SuperNOVA 2: ~80 Weeks of sales data
X: ~30 Weeks of sales data.

So, obviously a game that's been out twice as long as another game is more likely to have better sales.

2. Remember that back when MAX 2 was released, that was pretty much it in terms of DDR games. Ultramix was not yet released, and there obviously no was GC DDR series going. These days, we have series for PS2, Wii, and 360, so the sales are spread more.

But even if were to accept your assertion, then I should at least be able to expect Konami to pump out a game on the same level of Max2, or SuperNova. But DDR X is not even close to those two games. And if Konami's response is "well DDR is getting less popular," then maybe that's Konami's fault. After all, Konami puts a lot more effort into each IIDX and Pop'n version, and I don't hear those games dying out.

OK, IIDX/Pop'n have WAY different markets than DDR. DDR relies more heavily on casual/new gamers than IIDX and Pop'n Music do. And what has Pop'n Music or IIDX done recently to make the series more "fresh"? Not anything really, besides graphical changes and more modifiers.

I think all of this is coming from the standpoint that you didn't like DDR X (at least the songlist). Fine. But you know what? If they had spent two years on it, it probably would have turned on largely the same because the team was set on it going in a specific direction. The team was criticized for some parts of that direction, and I think that they are committed to turning that around. Obviously, we will see what the new year brings though.

[Blackraven]

Originally Posted by deathrazor

I'd rather play 5th Mix than everything after it due to how AWESOME the songlist is, but you don't hear me griping about how everything between MAX and SN didn't have dancers. Everyone will have a preference.

Strangely, I do agree with you regarding 5th mix being better than even MAX1, MAX2 or Extreme. Heck, I personally believe that this is the best PS1-based arcade version in the entire series (and that's not just because of Emi or Alice )

[Ashura96]

I'm sorry, but the OP's responses to ranatalus just fall flat.

[ranatalus]

Originally Posted by hello271

Except the target audience of casuals do NOT buy each mix. Find people who have every mix since DDRMAX. That person is more likely to be a hardcore DDR player than a casual. How many casuals do you know that own every mix? I don't. They usually buy one or two games and that's it.

You are absolutely right, any random person you find that has more than say, 3 home versions is probably a more hardcore player. How many "hardcore" players are there out there that will actually buy every version in the US? Maybe 1000? Maybe 10,000 at the absolute highest? Given your numbers here:

DDRMAX2: 1.09m
Extreme2: 0.92m
SuperNova: 0.83m
SuperNova2: 0.62m
DDR X: 0.21m (so far)

even if that absurdly high estimate 10,000 hardcore fans buy every version, that is practically NONE of the sales.

The numbers are clearly dropping, and dropping fast. And is it any surprise?

DDR X has been out what, 2 or 3 months? SN2 has been out over a year? Of course it's going to be outselling it by a ton.

Because CONTENT MATTERS. A better quality game = more sales. Otherwise, why not just have 40 songs, and pump out 5 or 6 versions?

Konami has probably done lots of research into what levels of content test well in audiences--I doubt they casually sit around and roll a bunch of dice to determine how many songs/which songs go into each version.

By only releasing one version every two years, they would save a lot of money by developing only one game, and also licensing fewer songs, fewer charts, etc. than by having two versions.

Didn't you say that they should simply be combining all the content from the two releases into that one, larger, "higher quality" release? What about keeping true to the AC versions? I think it would look rather lazy for Konami to have just pushed everything from SN onto DDR X and never release an SN2 home version.

In other words, something like a really good CS with 110 songs instead of two lackluster CS with 70-80 songs each.

An assumption you seem to be presenting here is that 1 game with more content is invariably going to be better than 2 games each with approximately 70% of the content of the larger game. Why? Is one 10-pound pile of shit better than two 7 pound piles? No. They're all piles of shit (not that I'm calling every DDR home version a pile of shit)

Yeah, having the general public accept that the game was over and done with, and having many move on to ITG, actually hurt SuperNova.

Actually, I don't think it hurt; I think it helped. DDR had passed the point of insane popularity, with arcades gladly dropping $1000+ for upgrade kits even when they had just paid that much 6 months earlier because they were making their money back (and quickly). Now, with DDR's fad status dying out and with arcades hurting more than ever, places are less willing to shell out more money for games. It's not just DDR, either. Wander around your local arcade and look at the dates on the headers of games. Look at how few are from 2006 forward, and compare to how many are before that. It's expensive to upgrade games, and games that continue to make some money likely won't get upgraded because they are still making a decent amount.

But a longer gap = higher demand (to a certain extent). This is still true.

Not really. If you noticed, when SN2 was first announced, there was a lot of hype and excitement for it. After the location test in Chicago in July 07, it increased the expectations even more. And then......nothing. No updates, no information, nothing. Expectations and desire dwindled. The game came out in Japan later that year. Interest spiked a little, and then died back off again. By the time it came out (Jan/Feb 08) no one really cared. It's been a full year now and very few places have upgraded. You were correct in assuming there were very few SN2s in California (out of their 400+ machines, only 12 are SN2--there are almost as many ITG1 machines!), although possibly for the wrong reasons. Again, the DDR fever has come down and machines aren't making $500+ a week anymore.

I should have added "from my experience." But okay, so what? A fourth of the Extreme machines have been upgraded. Whatever. It's still a huge number compared to the number of SuperNova 2 machines. How many of those are in CA? 10 maybe? 15? The simple fact is most arcade owners cannot afford to upgrade every year (or don't care to).

Ok? Not sure what you're getting at here since we're in agreement. Your original point was that people don't WANT to upgrade, not that they can't afford to.

A SuperNova upgrade kit also ran over $2000 if I remember right, so it's not that different. Upgrade kits always get more expensive with every version.

An SN upgrade cost around $2000, correct. It looks quite different to an arcade owner, however. They don't see things the same as the players.

Player: Hey, the new version of DDR is out!
Owner: Didn't I just upgrade this a year and a half ago?
Player: Yeah, but the new version adds new songs and (technical stuff that arcade owners/operators do not care about in the slightest)
Owner: ...I see. How much is it?
Player: $2500.
Owner: Is the machine working as is?
Player: Yeah.
Owner: Are you going to stop playing it if I don't upgrade?
Player: No....

Competition is the only incentive arcade operators have to upgrade. As long as people continue to play on the machine, they don't HAVE to upgrade/fix/do anything. If the machine stops making money, then they'll

Except you can go to any electronics store and pick up DDR X, DDR SuperNova 2, or DDR SuperNova. Some stores still have DDRMAX, MAX2, Extreme, and Extreme 2. They're also easy to find online. And that's just for people with one system.

Yeah, generally they are used copies which means that someone traded them in so they could either:

1) Buy some other game/system (most likely)
2) Buy another, newer version of DDR

Yeah, if the thing is actually new. Having the same game come out year after year is not exactly enticing to teenagers.

Sales seem to say otherwise. This is the same reason they license those 5-15 popular songs that most of the hardcore community can't stand. People will seriously buy DDR just to play 2 or 3 songs they know a handful of times.

By having every iteration of DDR actually be different, a step forward, with new features

Like what? Shock arrows? Those sure are an improvement and everyone seems to love them

Oh wait, practically no one (ITG players included) seems to like shock arrows in DDR

and a solid list of new songs

Opinion. I have found that DDR X's songlist did not interest me much at first but now that I am giving it a second chance I am liking quite a few of the songs.

Also, if DDR keeps pumping out games really fast, in a few years it will likely run out of steam.

Well, yeah, eventually the series will stop. It'll stop being profitable and then Konami will give up on it. It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.

First of all, there's no arbitrary reason that Konami can only put a lot of effort into a DDR game if it's the last game (or supposedly the last game). For example, a lot more effort is clearly put into every new IIDX game than every DDR game.

This one is pretty simple--Konami's primary target for IIDX and Pop'n is (SURPRISE) Japan. Japan's arcade/console gaming scene is quite different from ours. Also, these games are much, much, MUCH more popular in Japan than DDR is which is why Extreme was supposed to be the last DDR--it ceased to be worth the effort. It's also why the newer games are much different because they are geared at the American audiences, not the Japanese.

Extreme didn't take years and years to make. It came out in the arcades 9 months after Max2 did.

So then why are you telling Konami to slow down?

But even if were to accept your assertion, then I should at least be able to expect Konami to pump out a game on the same level of Max2, or SuperNova.

I don't see SN as being on-par with Max2. SuperNOVA shipped with a software bug that made the game nearly unplayable, and the "fix" that was sent to American arcades was poorly distributed with many arcades not receiving the disc and with some that DID not understanding why they got it, so they threw it in a back room somewhere and never used it.

But DDR X is not even close to those two games. And if Konami's response is "well DDR is getting less popular," then maybe that's Konami's fault. After all, Konami puts a lot more effort into each IIDX and Pop'n version, and I don't hear those games dying out.

Yeah, and no one around you in America hears anything about Pop'n or IIDX at all because, again, the Japanese gaming scene is very different. Also, those games kind of don't exist here and would probably not succeed if they did.

Also, as I mentioned before, DDR X is Konami's attempt to target a game more towards American arcades/the american audience.

No, I meant "DDX isn't half the mix Extreme was, and maybe not even half the mix SuperNova was." Although I might be stretching it with SuperNova.

Ok, that makes more sense.

And I don't see how the arcade version can be much better than DDR X US if DDR X US has most of the new songs in the arcade version.

The US version of DDR did not contain several new songs (A Geisha's Dream, Koko Soko, poririzumu, Suki Melo, ubertreffen, blue rain), some new modifiers (speed mods, etc), and other interface changes. It also did not include the feature to export edits to a USB drive, which the JP version DOES include.

[LilRabbitToy]

Wow, very exciting topic. Read all the back to back arguments.

I just have to say, Konami is dishing out a new DDR game as if it's like Madden.

I know I was that hardcore / casual player that bought every DDR game, but DDR is dead. I see it at my college's commons. Now that I think about it, the people who play DDR look kinda stupid (I include myself here).

It's just dead, Konami will dish out more DDR games obviously for profit because it sells. Look at Hottest Party...if I am not mistaken people say the song list is good?

With the rising interest in other types of music games (RB and GH), DDR's formula for music is dead...it's all about IIDX now. Make the switch and don't even feel sorry for Dance Pad Revolution! The revolution is now over, time to move on.