DOUBLE picking (picking down and up on the controller)...

[BobbyS]

Eh.... It seems I have to learn this. At what difficutly number is this neccessary? Up until now, I just hit down on the pick like any n00b or normal person, but starting to shave at some level 40+ songs, there are stages where If I try just picking down, my arm and forearm gets TIRED.

So, at what point did you guys start picking up and down? It's obviously difficult as funk to learn, so any tips? Are there any specefic songs that helped you get used to it?


How do you make that cross-over? Write down some things that worked for you. And if you are say you play level 50 songs by just picking down, I am going to cry.

*Claps hands together* All right! Time to learn this thing!

EDIT: I just read this thread: Guitarfreaks Strum/Pick

It looks like strumming and alternating the whole without resetting is the best way to improve. Do you guys keep that technique even for the super triplits? Anyways, I am more interested in the bolded questions.

[Opethian]

from the beginning even on easy basic song id alternate with up then down for each note it may get confusing at times but its the only way you are ever gonna get through hyper picking like model DD songs have and just about every song on EXT

[BobbyS]

Originally Posted by Opethian

from the beginning even on easy basic song id alternate with up then down for each note it may get confusing at times but its the only way you are ever gonna get through hyper picking like model DD songs have and just about every song on EXT

I started just going through songs I like playing alternate, and IT IS FUN. I don't know what it is, but it makes it feel like you are playing bass or something. I noticed after some playtime, I felt comfortable using my thumb for down (duh), but my middle finger for up. I didn't even realize I switched from my index to middle until about 5 minutes ago!

The double-pluck does make the 3s and 4s and such easier, but I can see it will take some time to get use to times where you play single or double notes and switch quickly. Are there any songs on this version of the game that you think do a good job of testing you? What things did you do that helped?

[Boutch]

I use to play one way picking for quite some time, but starting from level 70 and 80 things tend to become pretty hard if you don't do double picking.
So you might as well start now no matter what level you play cause it does take quite some time to get used to it. Eventually you 'll end up liking it because you won't get tired quite so easily and it does make the game MUCH more amusing!
It tends to look more like tou're playing guitare and not IIDX...

With the ASC it's almost impossible to clear most Ext songs without double picking because the pick is so stiff!

To start double picking, I would suggest :
1. Use speed mods if you don't already do it.
2. Try Metal queen on Adv or Ext (If you've got V2 that is...), it's got lots of fast double picking rather easy to do, perfect for getting used to timing!!!

[BobbyS]

Eventually you 'll end up liking it because you won't get tired quite so easily and it does make the game MUCH more amusing!

I SO agree! In only one day, I already enjoy the feel of it. I have Masterpiece Silver, but I will see if there is a song titled "Metal Queen" on there. What does IIDX stand for? And I was really impressed because after switching to double picking in just one day, there were already parts of songs that I would mess up strumming just down that I was somehow able to understand and play - so I can easily how this could be useful if you learn it.

But man, parts where you change notes super fast in a short amount of time - scary!

And WOW, you can get to level 70 strumming just down? I think 45-ish is as far as my forearm can handle.

EDIT: HOLY SHIT;

This song is WAY hard double-strumming. The title is in kanji, but the picture is the "shadow" city with the blue light in the corner. It is a J-rock song sung by a male voice. Especially the part where it does sets of 2s for a LONG ASS time - that gets kind of frustrating with a double-strum. And there is one section - if you know the song, you probably know where I am talking about - that is just a mess.

It sucks because if I down strum it, I can pull it off. How do you guys pull this one off?

[Checky]

I'm positive I know the song your talking about. It has a banner that looks like starry night and from the sound I'm pretty sure it's a Road of major song, I can even sing it, I just don't know the name because it's in Japanese. But the banner basically looks like a cartoon version of this painting. And yeah that's not even considered a very fast double pick =] I can downpick the whole thing pretty easily. =] But I can see how the changes in the middle could be a bit confusing.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5...rynightry6.jpg

[BobbyS]

Originally Posted by checkrox

I'm positive I know the song your talking about. It has a banner that looks like starry night and from the sound I'm pretty sure it's a Road of major song, I can even sing it, I just don't know the name because it's in Japanese. But the banner basically looks like a cartoon version of this painting. And yeah that's not even considered a very fast double pick =] I can downpick the whole thing pretty easily. =] But I can see how the changes in the middle could be a bit confusing.

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/5...rynightry6.jpg

That is the song - and I just down-picked the whole thing and it works fine. But with the alternating double pick,

I guess after practice, is it supposed to be better or easier with alternating picks? I figure, If I can double pick that annoying beast, other songs will be simpler...

[Checky]

It was really bugging me, so i figured it out. It's Tentaikansoku by Bump of Chicken, from GF6/DM5th. Woot.

[BobbyS]

Originally Posted by checkrox

It was really bugging me, so i figured it out. It's Tentaikansoku by Bump of Chicken, from GF6/DM5th. Woot.

Ah. I know that band. Do you down-strum this song or do you alternate? I'm curious as to what the experts say to, because - at least for me - this song is WAY easier to just down strum the whole thing. Alternating is a be-hotch.

[aeriyu]

Originally Posted by BobbyS

Eh.... It seems I have to learn this. At what difficutly number is this neccessary?

IMO double-picking doesn't depend on song difficulty as much as the speed of the particular song, as well as its note chart. The whole point of double-picking is to save your forearm a few cramps, right? So, you shouldn't have to double-pick unless you really have to... that, or if you like to show off

Streams don't really count -- you simply can't play those full down-picking, so you'll have to pretty much raise the "speed" at which you can double-pick a song without getting a stream of Goods.

I personally seperate the songs into four different tiers with regards to double-picking:

- Beginner: Flow, Micro Fin, etc
- Normal: Onihime (!!!), Agnus Dei, most songs in the game
- Stream/normal hybrid: Taisetsu na mono, going up, guzen, etc
- Fast: any Kozo Nakamura, DDs, TP, etc

Onihime really isn't that fast -- the only reason it's rated 98 is because it's filled with double-button switches. And hyperpicking...

So, at what point did you guys start picking up and down? It's obviously difficult as funk to learn, so any tips? Are there any specefic songs that helped you get used to it?

After I cramped halfway through a song I could read... that really pissed me off haha

How do you make that cross-over? Write down some things that worked for you. And if you are say you play level 50 songs by just picking down, I am going to cry.

- do the uppick with a strange finger, one that you wouldn't normally use; I started uppicking with my ring finger (rofl)
- alt-pick from the ground up... yes, that means playing from Robinson of course, if you think you could handle faster songs, by all means start with more difficult ones lol
- put more stress on the down-pick -- it REALLY helps you from getting streams of Goods and Poors
- skip a few dozen meals (hey, those loonies need to come from somewhere!)

It looks like strumming and alternating the whole without resetting is the best way to improve. Do you guys keep that technique even for the super triplits? Anyways, I am more interested in the bolded questions.

Not necessarily. Full downpick gives you the best control at the cost of endurance; full altpick gives you the best endurance at the cost of control. My friend says that those annoying triplets (IE: Die Zauberflot) are best played by resetting the alt-pick sequence at the beginning of each switch.

However, full altpicking REALLY helps when you're trying to learn the technique. It's just that when you're actually playing, you don't need to do full alt ^_^


Note: Metal Queen is a horrible song to practice alt-picking on because... well, that's not really a picking song, that's a stream song XD

Good songs for practicing are ones that you can barely full downpick without getting cramps

[BobbyS]

Ah, we have someone that likes to re-set to down, and not even alternate the whole way - very different from what I read in the last thread!

I just tied Agnus Dei, and I failed it. I have Masterpiece Silver, and at the moment, I am at probably a 30-40 difficulty. There are just a few songs that are 40 and above that I can pass - Agnus Dei is not one of them.

Unfortunately, I don't have any of those songs on your stream/hybrid list - I'm very curious to see what those are. I am guessing on those songs, you do not alternate because there are a lot of note switching, eh?

Streams don't really count -- you simply can't play those full down-picking, so you'll have to pretty much raise the "speed" at which you can double-pick a song without getting a stream of Goods.

So you MUST alt-pick on stream songs.

Note: Metal Queen is a horrible song to practice alt-picking on because... well, that's not really a picking song, that's a stream song XD

Bad for practicing because it is a stream song? I R confused :P

But yes, I agree for practice, using it on every song is good. I guess later on, after I get the hang of it all, I will have to see how many pros alt-pick the whole way, or use it on certain parts of songs, or whatever. In the end, if you get the experience and you know what YOU are doing, I guess it's just what's comfortable, eh?

[aeriyu]

Originally Posted by BobbyS

I just tied Agnus Dei, and I failed it. I have Masterpiece Silver, and at the moment, I am at probably a 30-40 difficulty. There are just a few songs that are 40 and above that I can pass - Agnus Dei is not one of them.

WHAT?! AGNUS DEI IS IN M/S?! Time to grind some more... I can't stand the roulette system, though :/

The problem with Agnus Dei is that the speed of the switching is halfway between slow and fast. AD is actually a great song to practice altpicking to because of that speed -- it's a bit more challenging than some of the easier songs, and it helps you build the technique you need for the faster ones

Unfortunately, I don't have any of those songs on your stream/hybrid list - I'm very curious to see what those are. I am guessing on those songs, you do not alternate because there are a lot of note switching, eh?

What I meant by "stream" is something like the middle section in RISE, where there isn't too much switching, as most of the difficulty lies in picking precision (another technique, but different from altpicking). In other words, portions of a song that you simply can't downpick... unless you're superhuman. Or Japanese XD

Agnus Dei's difficulty lies in the nonstop switching, which IMO is what you should train altpicking with. That "stream/hybrid" thing I'm talking about is stuff that you COULD full downpick, but don't need to switch too often. Generally these songs are rather fast, such as Black Horizon. You can easily recognize this type of song by lots of double/quadruple strums on the same note combination.

天体観測, TRAIN TRAIN, 本日ハ晴天ナリ, and Riff Riff Paradise are good songs from this category to try. Riff is also good practice for altpicking because I don't think there are any stream sections, so you can focus on syncing your fingering with your altpick.

Bad for practicing because it is a stream song? I R confused :P

Metal Queen is good for building rhythm, that's for sure... XD

Picking those fast sections without drowning in a sea of Poors will get REALLY important in some of the intermediate songs.

But yes, I agree for practice, using it on every song is good. I guess later on, after I get the hang of it all, I will have to see how many pros alt-pick the whole way, or use it on certain parts of songs, or whatever. In the end, if you get the experience and you know what YOU are doing, I guess it's just what's comfortable, eh?

IMO it's a matter of personal preference. Some people are simply better at downpicking, or have the stamina -- those people might want to reset more often so that their accuracy doesn't go down the drain. I personally like to altpick because I don't like cramps... and besides, practice makes perfect

One more thing I'd like to mention is that the difficulty rating on the songs are only guesstimates, because they take into account the three main skills in playing GF: hyperpicking, switching, and general speed. That being said, if a song's difficulty is mostly from switching and you happen to be great at it, it'd seem much easier than the rating given, and vice versa.

To better illustrate this, I'll compare two different songs: 月光蝶 (Gekkouchou) and たまゆら (Tamayura). Gekkouchou is a medium-fast song at a constant pick rate with nothing but switches (great practice!), whereas Tamayura is a medium-fast stream song. The fingering difficulty of Tamayura is around 20-30; Gekkouchou's speed pick rating is probably around 40-45. The actual rating for both is 74, by the way (both EXT)

What's the point of all that? Try to find a song with 0 stream so you can concentrate on working out your altpicking technique

[BobbyS]

Ah, I see. If it doesn't switch much, and it's just a bunch of fast notes packed together, it would be a "stream" song, and though you alt. pick, once you get the rythem down, it's not too difficult.

Songs that you switch notes often are the ones I should be practicing with alternate picking, huh? There are a lot of songs that switch notes very fast (and not in twos), that I do struggle to keep up with alternating - it's times like that I wonder if I should just be downpicking them. And those songs I generally COULD get away with if I downpicked it, but they are low in difficulty and I am sure with the same habit, I would be screwed in the later stages of the game.

So it seems, to play fast songs with high difficulty that also switch a lot, you have to learn how to keep up with the notes while alternating, huh?

Got it. I will find songs that go all over the fret, and practice alternate picking those - but I must say, learning how to stream today was fun and I think that is something I love spending time on too (I use to try to downpick the stream sections - OUCH!!). Thanks dude. Man, I don't see how you guys alternate pick some songs that don't stream much but just bounce all over the place!!

[aeriyu]

Originally Posted by BobbyS

Ah, I see. If it doesn't switch much, and it's just a bunch of fast notes packed together, it would be a "stream" song, and though you alt. pick, once you get the rythem down, it's not too difficult.

Songs that you switch notes often are the ones I should be practicing with alternate picking, huh? There are a lot of songs that switch notes very fast (and not in twos), that I do struggle to keep up with alternating - it's times like that I wonder if I should just be downpicking them. And those songs I generally COULD get away with if I downpicked it, but they are low in difficulty and I am sure with the same habit, I would be screwed in the later stages of the game.

If you could get away with downpicking, it's time to altpick it! XD

And I STILL can't play streams... orz

Got it. I will find songs that go all over the fret, and practice alternate picking those - but I must say, learning how to stream today was fun and I think that is something I love spending time on too (I use to try to downpick the stream sections - OUCH!!). Thanks dude. Man, I don't see how you guys alternate pick some songs that don't stream much but just bounce all over the place!!

I forgot to mention... you could MAKE the notes go all over the fret

First of all, make sure you start playing with RANDOM on. I mean, what's the point of playing the same song over and over again if the notes don't change? Random changes the position of the notes, but not so much that it deviates from the note chart. Think of it as switching the buttons' positions

Playing on Random helps improve your sight-reading, too. If you don't know what's coming up, you'll need to eventually read the notes faster, or else you won't be able to move your fingers fast enough. And of course, reading the notes faster means you can play faster songs...

If you happen to have GFDMV, you could always try Liar. That song isn't too fast. It also has GLIDE, which is excellent practice once you get all the basics down. GLIDE's also in the small family of songs that happen to be pure fingerwork. The beauty of these songs are you could turn on SUPER RANDOM for even more practice, and it won't screw you over... try putting Metal Queen on super random and see what you get XD

Off the top of my head, these are songs from GFDMV3 that I use to warm up:

GLIDE, 秋風, 月光蝶, Desert Rain, Ru-Ru-Ru, 偶然という名の必然 (this one's speed is actually comparable to Kozo's stuff), 大切なもの, 蛹 (only 5 mini-sets of streams in this song)

[chocori]

Originally Posted by BobbyS

Ah. I know that band. Do you down-strum this song or do you alternate? I'm curious as to what the experts say to, because - at least for me - this song is WAY easier to just down strum the whole thing. Alternating is a be-hotch.

I'd say Tentaikansoku is equally easy to play with or without double strumming since it's pretty slow compared to songs where you will want to be double strumming.

You could double strum it for the practice - EXT's got slower-paced fret switching and there's some double-fret switching before the last chorus.