Suggestions for BoNG Rules Reforms

[Aeronautical Vigilante]

Please limit your reforms to rules-related only, i.e. don't complain about lack of entries, the fact that 'x' or 'y' genre won, etc.

Suggestions from the First thread, which may or may not be implemented

• Have the challenge round be remaking files that DIDN'T make it only. (Definately considerable.)
• Allow single-chart keyboard entries. (Not too likely, partially becuase I want to encourage a minimim amount of work being put into the entry.)
• Separating keyboard entirely to it's own competitions. (Again, I'm not too sure, if only because I can't really be running two separate competition series regularly)
• Fewer points for following the rules - instead penalizing for not doing so. (Almost definately this will be implemented.)
• Merging the DDR and ITG brackets into one "Open Pad" bracket, similar to how it was in the earlier OSCs, to encourage original methodologies and not being locked into the Box of DDR-like or ITG-like thinking. (I am strongly considering this one - counter-cases made about it muchly consist of hating on DDR or ITG, which to me is not related to the important question of "how fun and well-done is the entry, ignorant of category?".)
• Tighter enforcement of criticisms being constructive. (Pretty much guaranteed.)
• Remove official judges entirely. (No. Not just no, hell no.)
• Don't do Solo-centric challenge again. Ever. (This one saddens the Incy. Solo needs more love. The next challenge, at least, won't be Solo. Or Doubles.)
• Limit judged charts (and required charts) to 1. (No, for the same reason as not doing the same for Keyboard files.)
• Have at least five judges, and drop the lowest and highest. (I was actually thinking average the lowest and highest, but this works too - and yes I do plan to try and ensure 5 or more judges per bracket, every bracket this time.)
• Restrict Rolls. (At least, Jammitch seemed to be implying this one.) (Also, probably not, though I will admit some uses of them are kind of stupid.)
• Restore the 'bonus' scheme from OSC3, at least in part. (Being considered, there's merits and problems with this one.)

Keep in mind that the last thread got locked due to ranting about "what sucked about people's song selections", "the judges suck" (a comment that I will personally murder any repeats of), and/or "(insert DDR, ITG, or Keyboard here) sucks". Keep the discussion centered on the rules this time.

I'll also accept, as part of posts here, name ideas for the competion after BoNG. >_>

[pokecapn]

Random thoughts coming from reading these rules:
- I really think keyboard should just not be included. The communities are so separate that it's silly to try and have them compete in the same competition.
- It's definitely :P.
- The one danger with making an "open pad" bracket is making a file "too hard" in both the heavy and challenge charts, but I guess that would be addressed by public reviewers not finding the file fun. In my opinion, a lot of the ITG expert 9's were too hard given the nature of the song, and should have been made like Mouth's hard steps. If someone makes ITG 9 steps for heavy and ITG 10+ steps for challenge, the people who stick with the DDR line of thinking are going to hate on the steps a lot.
- But destructive criticism is so much fun!!!!
- By lowest and highest, do you mean in general, or selectively for each song? It makes more sense to take them out on a song-by-song basis.
- JJJJJJAMMITCH?????? (note the lack of lowercase letters and exclamation marks)
- I have no idea what the bonus scheme is but if it's like TournaMix's I think that's a good thing.

Maybe you overlooked this in the thread, but a really good rule change suggestion that was made was to not consider challenge charts as a main chart to be graded in the DDR bracket if brackets are staying.

[Sakura Guy]

i'd like an open pad bracket because it forces people to think outside of DDR/ITG and make fun original steps that are not necessarily related to DDR or ITG

[cpubasic13]

Originally Posted by relientk1212

i'd like an open pad bracket because it forces people to think outside of DDR/ITG and make fun original steps that are not necessarily related to DDR or ITG

That and to stop poor ratings because it isn't a song choice that would fit in DDR/ITG.

>_>

[hamm]

I'm against this open "pad" division because it lacks judgability. A good file in ITG is one that goes to notes in the music, while a good file in DDR is one that goes to the overall feel of the music. In this open division, what would separate a good file from a bad file? If the answer is "how fun it is," then each review would just be that person's preference, and the idea of a file being "fun and well-done" would be based on which game a person plays.

[jammitch!]

Originally Posted by NekoIncardine

Restrict Rolls. (At least, Jammitch seemed to be implying this one.)

I wasn't implying that as a competiton suggestion, just as a personal opinion. Anything SM (or %POPULAR_DANCE_GAME_SIMULATOR_OF_THE_TIME%) supports should be fair game. This, of course, does not change the fact that rolls are stupid. :p

Originally Posted by hamm

I'm against this open "pad" division because it lacks judgability.

You, sir, lack imagination.

the idea of a file being "fun and well-done" would be based on which game a person plays.

No, the idea of "fun and well-done" would be based on what a person found "fun and well-done." The point with this is there's more than two ways to write charts and there's more than two sets of things people find fun, and I wanted to see people break out of "the game they play" a little bit. What I like is not influenced by what game it comes from, but by whether it's - gasp - fun. Beyond that, it sounds like you're trying to take a subjective contest and apply objective criteria, which will do nothing but stifle creativity.

Originally Posted by pokecapn

- JJJJJJAMMITCH?????? (note the lack of lowercase letters and exclamation marks)

You have insulted my honor and my good (okay, not so good) name, and I challenge you to a INTERNET WHINING MATCH. Livejournals at 10 paces.

[Jezendar]

My thoughts:

In regards to the idea of a separate keyboard competition, running that separately may not be all that bad, as both OSC 4 and 5 saw less that a dozen keyboard entries each. Unfortunately, spinning it off into its own contest probably won't fix the problems seen in OSC 4 and 5 with finding a sufficient number of decent judges.

I think getting penalized for ignoring the rules makes perfect sense.

I would support the idea of merging the DDR and ITG brackets, but I do have a question: Currently, people can enter two pad files, one in each bracket. If the brackets get merged, can people still enter two pad files?

I was looking forward to OSC 5's Solo chart challenge round, but missed it because I simply didn't get an entry made for OSC 5 in general, so I would certainly be interested in seeing a Solo round recur in the future.

In regards to rolls, I do believe that the current 'official' release for Stepmania is still 3.9 rc4, which does not support rolls. Although I believe rolls can add to a file when used well, I think it might be wise to ban them from the tournaments until they are supported by a version of Stepmania that does not require a CVS build.

[Aeronautical Vigilante]

My comments so far:

* I'm considering not including keyboard, except that, well, I do enjoy works in the form at least somewhat and like the idea of reasonably well-run 4-key keyboard contests.
* The big issue with an "open pad" bracket, as stated, is people on the outskirts of the difficulty range. Hardcore players will tend to pan easier sets unless they are really fun. Newer and more casual players, on the other hand, will pan the highest difficulties as 'too hard' regardless of it's real difficulty. We can't assume law of averages, unfortunately, so some way to work this out - perhaps changing the current 'bug-free and accurate difficulty' to 'Has an intent and follows it successfully' would help?
* I mean highest and lowest scores per song, not in the judges' overall averages.
* Challenge charts are not going to be considered a main chart - they'll offer bonus points (but truly asstastic ones can offer negative bonus).
* I do not see hamm's argument as being a bad thing, if we fairly represent a decent range of opinions and have a rule of considering what you think the chart was going for, and how well it attains it, as part of it's score (this replacing 'bug-free')
* If the brackets merge... Well I'm thinking if it'd allow two pad entries or jus one. I'd say probably two, but they'd have to follow highly distinct styles.
* I'm thinking about whether to use 3.9r4 or 4.0 CVS. I'm personally a fan of supporting the CVS releases to help catch inevitable bugs - and furthermore get people to adjust to the new Radial coordinate scheme. This is, however, my opinion.

[Xythar]

I still have a hard time trying to imagine what kind of song/chart would fit in neither the DDR nor ITG categories and still be fun to play on your feet. Personally I'm in support of having KB/ITG/DDR as brackets, same as always, but that's me.

[TakeWalker]

Originally Posted by pokecapn

- The one danger with making an "open pad" bracket is making a file "too hard" in both the heavy and challenge charts, but I guess that would be addressed by public reviewers not finding the file fun. In my opinion, a lot of the ITG expert 9's were too hard given the nature of the song, and should have been made like Mouth's hard steps. If someone makes ITG 9 steps for heavy and ITG 10+ steps for challenge, the people who stick with the DDR line of thinking are going to hate on the steps a lot.

FINALLY SOMEONE UNDERSTANDS

I don't know. This is the downside to merging. The upside would be the removal of "this isn't DDR/ITG enough" comments, which I think is a very good thing. I suppose it would be best -- since this is a testrun, after all -- to start with a merger and see how it goes.

Also, I had been wondering what BoNG stood for.

As far as rolls go, I've seen 4.0 and I'm very excited about it, but I, for one, don't want to bother with it until it's out of beta. Just as soon as that happens, though, we should go ahead and implement its full capabilities.

[alphabet55]

Merging the DDR and ITG brackets is a good idea.

As for my own idea, I think there should be a token prize or something for placing 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc.

[Aeronautical Vigilante]

I think I'm going to go ahead and make OSC ~Beta of New Generation~ (There's the answer again! :O ) be Merged Pad, with Keyboard Edits as a bonus and no actual Keyboard bracket. (Challenge steps need to be reasonably paddable as compared to guys who can pass anything ITG2 has to offer). I will chat with djparanoia about offering prizes (though I'd rather they be more interesting than just straight tokens).

[cpubasic13]

Originally Posted by NekoIncardine

I will chat with djparanoia about offering prizes (though I'd rather they be more interesting than just straight tokens).

A special ribbon would be cool...
But what else would there be for a prize?

Merge the two divisions and keeps all the difficulties required. That way, if a step chart is "too hard" there is always the previous difficulty.

[Azure Haights]

Originally Posted by cpubasic13

A special ribbon would be cool...
But what else would there be for a prize?

Well, they could always spring for a copy of Supernova CS or ITG for the winner --

USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST

[Xythar]

I might change my mind later, but at the moment I might sit this one out, especially since DDREI is back. I have no idea how to make files (or evaluate files made by other people) for a Merged Pad division, and overall the song choice themes don't really excite me.

I'm hoping the three divisions come back for the next full OSC, I'll be looking forward to it if so.