No telling how this will affect plans for Rock Band 2, but I can't imagine them being affected favorably (at least not from Harmonix's point of view).
More Details after the cut.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Article
Konami Corp., the Japanese creator of the ``Dance Dance Revolution'' music video game, sued Viacom Inc.'s Harmonix studio, claiming its ``Rock Band'' game violates patents.
The Konami patents, issued in 2002 and 2003, relate to simulated musical instruments, a music-game system and a ``musical-rhythm matching game.'' Konami also makes the ``Karaoke Revolution'' music game with microphones, as well as the ``Metal Gear Solid'' espionage game.
Konami is demanding cash compensation, plus an order that would block Viacom and Harmonix from using the inventions, according to the complaint, filed yesterday in federal court in Marshall, Texas. The suit names Harmonix Music Systems, Viacom, and Viacom's MTV Networks Co., which owns Harmonix.
Any posts to the effect of "Konami will Sue" will be met with 3 point infractions for token whoring.
How so? It's the same movie with a different villian, kind of like James Bond. Konami holds patents, Harmonix went "lol w/e" and, just like in the other case, if you don't defend your patents you lose them.
So I don't know how I posted without seeing your article first, apologies for that
Also, Konami did sue, it's not a matter of will/won't :)
haha, it's cool. i made sure to make a post to you in the admin forum so you didn't think i was just being a dick
also i added that warning because we had discussed how annoying that and stuff like "lol cock band" was getting in newsposts; i suppose now it's going to be "rock banned"
I voted positive. Voting "positive" or "negative" doesn't mean what your opinions of the matter are, but how relevant you think it is to the site and the music gaming scene in general. I think that lawsuits that could potentially end an entire game series are pretty important and always need to be covered.
Also FFR4Eva: about 4 moderators made it clear to you in the last RB2 newspost, so I'm making it clear again: Stop trolling in the news. This is your last warning.
I think Konami is just trying to protect its ideas. Guitar Hero has licensed patents, it's odd that Rock Band doesn't. What's more odd, is that Harmonix worked with Konami to create the Karaoke Revolution series. You would think Harmonix would be more careful than to "borrow" ideas from a company it once worked with.
Crap. I don't play Rock Band myself, but it's a good game that a lot of my friends enjoy, and I'd hate for it to be destroyed by Konami's legal staff the way ITG was.
What exactly are the patents in question? Must do research into this.
Posted by AJ 187 - Thu 07/10 2008 - 08:00 PM [ quote ]
perhaps it was Activision who sought out the Konami patents after acquiring Guitar Hero? That would be a nice way to explain everything.
I think Konami is just trying to protect its ideas. Guitar Hero has licensed patents, it's odd that Rock Band doesn't. What's more odd, is that Harmonix worked with Konami to create the Karaoke Revolution series. You would think Harmonix would be more careful than to "borrow" ideas from a company it once worked with.
well yeah, that's clearly it. if i was a part of a huge company i certainly wouldn't let millions of dollars in R&D be used by someone else to make money
Konami patented Guitarfreaks and Drummania here in the US, which is what I'm assuming they're going to base their arguments off of. If not the games themselves, then the controllers.
It doesn't matter how good their legal team is or how much money they have. If you are sued for a patent violation in East Texas, chances are 10-to-1 you will LOSE regardless of how valid your argument is.
I think AceJay's argument is more that Viacom could attempt to just drag the case out until Konami no longer finds it to be financially viable; in cases of large company vs. small company this tactic works pretty well (since the small company doesn't have the money to involve in a long, drawn-out legal battle) but in large company vs. large company I don't think it'll work so well.
My impression is that such a tactic would not work in this court because of the speed with which the judge forces the cases. The best they can probably do is appeal to a higher court and drag it out there.
Honestly, though, think of how many cases are also settled out of court. It may not be in Viacom's best interest to go through the courts (for whatever reasons: financial, PR, etc.), so they might take some settlement. Konami must at least appear to fight it seriously, even though any end result that protects their IP would be, on some level, successful.
HAHAHA OH LOLZ!.
Really i don't know why Konami take so long for sue them.
Also i like Rockband but i really don't care what happens whit him.
Konami seems to be very opportunistic. They sued ITG a few months before they announced DDR SuperNOVA, and now they're suing Rock Band a few months before Rock Revolution is released.
I absolutely do not want to see Harmonix lose this. The amount of effort they put into Rock Band is astounding. Rock Revolution doesn't look like it's going to be good at all.
Please note, the law is the law. If you want to use someone else's intellectual property, you can't just do it because they don't seem to be using it. You have to agree to license it, just like everyone else. Also, as was brought up by a friend of mine around the time of ITG's release, if you willfully and maliciously use someone else's patents, penalties increase sharply. It matters not who came up with a better product, who put more effort into it, but who had the ideas first.
I find this VERY ironic
Considering Harmonix essentially MADE Karaoke Revolution...not that that's saying much, but still. SWEET. Now if Konami only bought Guitar Hero now...huh?
US Patent system is fucked up, for real. Wasn't it just last week some guy in Texas sued Nintendo for a patent for the Nintendo DS?
Posted by eddie - Thu 07/10 2008 - 10:14 PM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AceJay
Viacom is fucking huge. Konami will LOSE.
Konami is FUCKING HUGE in japan as well. People seem to forget that Konami isn't just a video game manufacturer in Japan. They do television production, music, toys, all sorts of shit. If Konami didn't think they could take on Viacom, they wouldn't have.
If this interrupts Rock Band being ported to Japan then I would be angry.
Still, I always wondered what happened to the patent issue in America. Before, threads always popped up asking why drummania couldn't get to the US and it was always because MTV held the patent for Drumscape. Then seemingly out of the blue V4 is released and rock band comes out on the scene. Huh.
It'll be interesting to see if this hurts Konami's reputation and what the end result will be if either side loses/wins.
Posted by Alex - Thu 07/10 2008 - 10:29 PM [ quote ]
Worst case scenario, Viacom/HMX have to pay patent and legal fees. Big freaking whoop. There might be a clause in there that calls for a production halt, but that gets called for in pretty much ever patent suit ever filed.
Posted by Alex - Thu 07/10 2008 - 10:30 PM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by THECapedCaper
So when does Activision get sued? They're a worse problem than Harmonix is.
They pay patent licenses to Konami, so they're in the clear.
That's it. They've finally crossed the line with me.
When Sierra cancelled Half-Life for Dreamcast AFTER IT WAS ALREADY FINISHED, I vowed never to buy a Sierra game again. I mistakenly bought Geometry Wars: Galaxies as a gift, but beyond that, I've lived up to it.
Well, today I vow never to buy a Konami game again.
I don't care whether they created Bemani. That was 10 freaking years ago. Did you see the Parappa creators flipping out because someone else made a music-based game where you push buttons? No.
This has nothing to do with simply protecting their intellectual property, because if it did, then they would have gone after FreQuency, Amplitude, Pulse, DJ Max, Guitar Hero AS SOON AS THE FIRST VERSION GOT POPULAR, and basically every other game that played remotely like Beatmania.
The following is my personal opinion...you can agree with it or not.
They are unable to innovate their existing games any more, so when a vastly superior product comes out and they feel threatened, they find a patent on their peripherals and fire the lawsuit cannon. They did it when ITG got popular in arcades and a home version came out, and they're doing it now because Harmonix, MTV Games, etc. are bringing Rock Band to Japan.
What frustrates me even more is how they treat potential customers. We all know how they treated the ITG fan base. It doesn't matter whether Konami was right or wrong, whether the lawsuit was deserved or not. What matters is that when all was said and done, there was a community of gamers who loved ITG's gameplay, and were eagerly anticipating more. Konami could have expanded DDR into two series, or simply added more features to DDR that ITG players might enjoy. But they did neither, and essentially said "we don't give a crap about you guys; you'll play our game and like it, or you'll play nothing." They knowingly turned away many thousands of people. That's a great PR move, isn't it?
It seems to me that if they succeed in this lawsuit, they'll do everything in their power to bury Rock Band. Only this time, the fan base is larger, and they'll be more offended. Now that MGS4 is already out, I have to wonder how their future products will sell in America if they are truly that arrogant.
That's it. They've finally crossed the line with me.
When Sierra cancelled Half-Life for Dreamcast AFTER IT WAS ALREADY FINISHED, I vowed never to buy a Sierra game again. I mistakenly bought Geometry Wars: Galaxies as a gift, but beyond that, I've lived up to it.
Well, today I vow never to buy a Konami game again.
I don't care whether they created Bemani. That was 10 freaking years ago. Did you see the Parappa creators flipping out because someone else made a music-based game where you push buttons? No.
This has nothing to do with simply protecting their intellectual property, because if it did, then they would have gone after FreQuency, Amplitude, Pulse, DJ Max, Guitar Hero AS SOON AS THE FIRST VERSION GOT POPULAR, and basically every other game that played remotely like Beatmania.
The following is my personal opinion...you can agree with it or not.
They are unable to innovate their existing games any more, so when a vastly superior product comes out and they feel threatened, they find a patent on their peripherals and fire the lawsuit cannon. They did it when ITG got popular in arcades and a home version came out, and they're doing it now because Harmonix, MTV Games, etc. are bringing Rock Band to Japan.
What frustrates me even more is how they treat potential customers. We all know how they treated the ITG fan base. It doesn't matter whether Konami was right or wrong, whether the lawsuit was deserved or not. What matters is that when all was said and done, there was a community of gamers who loved ITG's gameplay, and were eagerly anticipating more. Konami could have expanded DDR into two series, or simply added more features to DDR that ITG players might enjoy. But they did neither, and essentially said "we don't give a crap about you guys; you'll play our game and like it, or you'll play nothing." They knowingly turned away many thousands of people. That's a great PR move, isn't it?
It seems to me that if they succeed in this lawsuit, they'll do everything in their power to bury Rock Band. Only this time, the fan base is larger, and they'll be more offended. Now that MGS4 is already out, I have to wonder how their future products will sell in America if they are truly that arrogant.
Please simmer down. Your scaring the neighbors with your long and clearly retarded rant.
Damn it why didn't they sue Guitar Hero instead, Rock Band isn't the evil one. Edit: Oh, Bojanges explained that
Konami will probably win, but I think by this point Harmonix/Viacom have enough money to support whatever payment needs to be made. Isn't there a similar arrangement in place with DDR and Pump it Up?
As much as I love Konami for spearheading the genre I really hope that this doesn't end the Rock Band series. There needs to be more variety in the market to force all competing companies to push their products to higher standards of quality.
From a completely neutral standpoint I'll say this: Patents are currently too general and grant FAR too long a grace period, especially given the rate technology and manufacturing advance at.
DRR/PIU wise, IIRC, Konami pays andamiro a patent fee for something in the stage.
Doesn't matter--the law is the law. You can't choose to ignore it simply because you don't believe it's "fair" or "right".
Hiding behind "Its the law" is avoiding the issue altogether. Regardless of what the "law" is- you can't possibly think, in good faith, that this is good for the industry. If a game company wants to make money, they put the resources into developing a good game, NOT sue off another developer's hard work.
Everyone here already knows that Beatmania US, was a half-ass attempt of a game with songs that no one even wanted. Based on the videos, Rock Revolution is yet another half-ass attempt.
Posted by Alex - Thu 07/10 2008 - 11:19 PM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by yyr
That's it. They've finally crossed the line with me.
*a whole bunch of words*
See I'm OK with defending Konami on this one, because IN THEIR DEFENSE, they do have patents registered that sound SUSPICIOUSLY like Rock Band's play modes. They ARE within their legal and financial right to do so, and if their patent lawyers believe that Rock Band is a derivative product (ie: Would not exist had Konami come up with the idea first) then they are well within their rights to sue when no patent fees are being paid.
That being said, this does point out a major flaw in the patent system as it relates to video games, such as to what degree a software concept CAN be patented. The outcome of this case could be fairly important to game patents down the line, but it's rather harsh to damn a company based on something a PROFESSIONAL LEGAL TEAM has already told them is violating their intellectual property rights.
It'd be commendable if they didn't sue, but this is a move that's hardly worth damning them over.
I was awaiting this to happen. I'm not too surprised. Not just with Konami, but with famous musicians in America too. Older musicians have a tendency to scrutinize new songs to find similar melodies. If something sounds similar, then they sue for plagarism, even if it is a really short section, they still sue.
I, too, am against Konami on this. They didn't even try to seriously market GF or DM here in the US. When they did with GF, it was just a half-assed attempt in the arcades. They're not trying to make a great game to satisfy everyone and make a lot of money. They're trying to collect settlements from everyone who is successful with something similar to what they failed miserably with.
Guitar Hero earned its reputation through its serious efforts at making an awesome game that its fans will enjoy. Back before they had a name for themselves, they innovated with new features and modes, and tried to pick a track list that its audience would enjoy. They did it well and look at what happened.. we have GH and RB, both of which are extremely popular, creative, and fun.
Now let's look at what Konami has done. DDR became immensely popular here both in arcades and at home and what has Konami been doing? Sitting and doing nothing. We've been given the same game with a different look and a few songs handed to us every year. Up until about a month ago they didn't care about a thing the fans have said. Even DDR X, a release that's supposed to be significant, looks like Supernova 2 with a new paint job. I'm tired of being disappointed by Konami. The fans spoke and Activision and Harmonix listened with every new release they had.
Posted by eddie - Thu 07/10 2008 - 11:47 PM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by YeehawMcKickass
From a completely neutral standpoint I'll say this: Patents are currently too general and grant FAR too long a grace period, especially given the rate technology and manufacturing advance at.
DRR/PIU wise, IIRC, Konami pays andamiro a patent fee for something in the stage.
Try the other way around. Andamiro may have won the case, but that was nothing more than a "hey, you don't have to pay them" thing. The problem with it was that Konami and AM settled out of court before the case was finished and as such, AM pays Konami royalties.
The recent DDR mixes prove beyond shadow of a doubt that Konami want the support of the casual gamer; not the community.
And if this is Konami's strategy for getting Rock Revolution noticed, then I hope it crashes and burns.
Posted by dj DNEM - Thu 07/10 2008 - 11:54 PM [ quote ]
DDR has made a big turnaround in Japan. Once again the AC releases and JPN releases are what you need to buy if you want your classic unamericanized DDR.
From a completely neutral standpoint I'll say this: Patents are currently too general and grant FAR too long a grace period, especially given the rate technology and manufacturing advance at.
DRR/PIU wise, IIRC, Konami pays andamiro a patent fee for something in the stage.
Try the other way around. Andamiro may have won the case, but that was nothing more than a "hey, you don't have to pay them" thing. The problem with it was that Konami and AM settled out of court before the case was finished and as such, AM pays Konami royalties.
Did some digging on this and keep finding conflicting information. http://www.ampress.co.jp/english_news.htm is the best thing I found on any of it (VERY last notice on the page).
Andamrio LOST in Korea, and appeared to be winning in the US. The suit was in the process of appeal in Korea when the settlement came down. There was a payment from Andamiro to Konami, but it says nothing of royalties.
I'd need to see the patent notice screen from supernova ac again. I could have sworn I saw an andamrio patent notice on there. Anyone got a picture?
Posted by Zeon0087 - Fri 07/11 2008 - 12:25 AM [ quote ]
Harmonix/MTV/EA will win, and all the bemani fanboys will cry like they lost their mothers.
To hell with Konami and their tactics made of Fail.
this is a damn shame. Konami is right to sue Harmonix, but it serves them right because they forgotten the community that was built from their gaming. This possibly won't end in Harmonix losing but maybe they will have to pay royalities like Andamiro did.
Posted by Alex - Fri 07/11 2008 - 12:30 AM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuroraIxion
this is a damn shame. Konami is right to sue Harmonix, but it serves them right because they forgotten the community that was built from their gaming. This possibly won't end in Harmonix losing but maybe they will have to pay royalities like Andamiro did.
Can I still make my 'Konami Hates America' comment?
Also John Carmack does not approve.
Posted by BemaniAK - Fri 07/11 2008 - 12:43 AM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reenee
Fighting the good fight at 4chan, eh?
It was anything but good.
"About time, Konami"
"OH WOW KONAMI WILL MAKE RHYTHM GAMES NOW"
"ROCK REVOLUTION IS SO CRAP THAT THEY DON'T WANT ANY COMPETITION"
"Meh, GFDM is superior, better scoring system, bigger songlist, etc."
"Japfag"
"what, for liking a better game?"
"No, it's because you like a Japanese game with japanese songs"
"The country of origin of the game's songlist isn't that big a deal, it's more the scoring system"
"You're not a japfag for liking the songs, you're a japfag for liking GFDM because it has a better timing window"
"huh?"
"WEEABOO WEEABOO"
Correct me if I am wrong, but the linked Konami patent talks about the guitar simulation controller, where the linked Harmonix patent talks about all simulated instument controllers...right?
This is just a battle over the guitar patent, not the entire game design?
Bleh, whatever. Personally, I'd rather Konami win because I play GF/DM way more than GH/RB. That's just my own self-fufilling explanation.
Posted by Alex - Fri 07/11 2008 - 01:02 AM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BemaniAK
It was anything but good.
Well you are being kind of an ass (like everyone else in the fucking bemani community). Rock Band and GFDM are different games in the same genre. Drums and guitar are about all they have in common. Neither is demonstrably superior, they're completely different games based around the same concept.
Posted by June.H - Fri 07/11 2008 - 01:16 AM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by hideki
If this interrupts Rock Band being ported to Japan then I would be angry.
I'm actually wondering if that's what sparked the whole thing in the first place.
Posted by Zarcom - Fri 07/11 2008 - 01:34 AM [ quote ]
In a small way, I agree with Konami going after Harmonix. Harmonix should not of basically stolen the idea of making a drum-simulation with a guitar simulation. Because that concept has been done.
Now when I say "small", what I mean is "it took Konami THIS FUCKING LONG to figure out that another company was ripping off the idea", lmao they should get over it.
Oh well, im sure this whole thing will blow over, but im still laughing my ass off over this haahhaa.
See yaz bye.
Posted by Snapps - Fri 07/11 2008 - 01:47 AM [ quote ]
I actually holy shit'd when I saw the title.
Very curious as to why Konami is going after them now and not before. Something must have happened recently, perhaps?
Besides, I actually don't care who wins this one. Rock Band looks like it's going in a good direction for people who are into rhythm games, so hopefully Rock Band 2 will be released no matter what happens in this case.
Posted by Vyhd - Fri 07/11 2008 - 01:51 AM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapps
I actually holy shit'd when I saw the title.
Very curious as to why Konami is going after them now and not before. Something must have happened recently, perhaps?
does "Viacom will countersue!" count :P? seriously though, it is a possibility. the screenshots (here and here) look suspiciously like GH/RB.
RR is just a different looking version of GF/DM really.. with gimmicks and an american track list thrown in. you're very right. I think Viacom might mention this in court, whether they countersue or not.
I hope you die very painfully. Thanks for contributing.
This will end in a settlement. Harmonix isn't just going to go "lol we lose let's give up," and let's face it, the fanbase for RB is too fucking huge for them to EVER give up.
Or (hopefully), they just partner up and get rid of the already probably going to be a failure Rock Revolution.
Well, Konami is handling things at bad times. It seems like they're suing when they are losing fans, and it was pretty bad for ITG fans. I doubt it'll lead to an end to RB, but if it does, that would be terrible. Konami hasn't delivered enough lately to gain my trust with Rock Revolution, since they haven't seemed to listen to fans or follow any sort of good logic since EX2 (only speaking of DDR Home versions, though).
Honestly, Konami suing wouldn't be so bad if they delivered consistently, like GH/RB did. GH and RB worked hard to get where they are and are constantly doing theri best to stay there, while Konami stopped working after they finished, at least in the US.
I might be ignoring something VERY important here....
Posted by Snapps - Fri 07/11 2008 - 02:45 AM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyhd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Snapps
I actually holy shit'd when I saw the title.
Very curious as to why Konami is going after them now and not before. Something must have happened recently, perhaps?
They're competition.
Not when they've worked together, I would say.
I think Harmonix probably had a prior OK by Konami to do Rock Band and something recently came up (inclusion of GF/DM in states soon?) or Konami felt a tad bit greedy.
Posted by ocyl - Fri 07/11 2008 - 03:18 AM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranatalus
I voted positive. Voting "positive" or "negative" doesn't mean what your opinions of the matter are, but how relevant you think it is to the site and the music gaming scene in general.
I personally don't like the patent system, but I have voted positive to reflect my opinion on the matter. I do think that Rock Revolution will be a failure regardless of the case's outcome, however. Konami should have brought Bemani's GF & DM series over, along with e-Amusement.
I'm pretty split on this. But I hope Konami wins this only because I hate viacom with a bloody passion....at the same time I love rock band
Posted by BemaniAK - Fri 07/11 2008 - 03:39 AM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranatalus
I voted positive. Voting "positive" or "negative" doesn't mean what your opinions of the matter are, but how relevant you think it is to the site and the music gaming scene in general.
Oh NOW you tell me...
Posted by Alex - Fri 07/11 2008 - 03:40 AM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Launchpad08
i hear wolfenstein is going to sue halo
Holy shit someone actually gets it, I think my heart may have just failed. D:
I find this VERY ironic
Considering Harmonix essentially MADE Karaoke Revolution...not that that's saying much, but still. SWEET. Now if Konami only bought Guitar Hero now...huh?
Just like they got the rights to ITG and used them. Just like they're making an obviously awesome Rock Revolution game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oLAUGHINGMANo
Please simmer down. Your scaring the neighbors with your long and clearly retarded rant.
It's obvious his rant was an opinion, as he mentioned it several times, and I believe he made quite a few good points.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AuroraIxion
this is a damn shame. Konami is right to sue Harmonix, but it serves them right because they forgotten the community that was built from their gaming. This possibly won't end in Harmonix losing but maybe they will have to pay royalities like Andamiro did.
Honestly, I think Konami is well within their legal rights here. I am honestly quite surprised that Harmonix didn't think "OH GEE MAYBE THEY HAVE A PATENT ON THIS SORT OF THING," before they tried filing their own, extremely similar patent.
At the very least, they could have tried specifically stepping around the patent violating parts a la ITG (making hallway default so that the scroll part of Konami's patent didn't really apply). Granted, the DDR patent was pretty specific compared to this one.
I dunno, I think Harmonix and Viacom played this one badly by not doing any sort of negotiation or royalties or some sort of thing. As cruel as it sounds, it is what they get for not playing by the rules.
I would bet just about anything that Konami wasn't planning on suing UNTIL Rock Band was to be ported to Japan. They haven't had success with ports other than DDR, so they probably weren't serious about a GF/DM port until after Rock Band came out. However, GF/DM is still very popular in Japan and Rock Band would mess with that and IS a blatant rip off, albeit a very pretty rip off with an awesome track list. Rock Band being released in Japan could screw Konami over and they won't let that happen--so American fans might just end up suffering as a by-product.
according to the patent, couldn't they sue redoctane and activision over guitar hero since the konami patent goes into detail about the guitar?
Posted by bkld18 - Fri 07/11 2008 - 09:42 AM [ quote ]
Was waiting for them to sue...they may not be the best marketers, but Konami essentially INVENTED the GH controller. It's pretty blatant, and they're within their right.
In the end though, I think Rock Band/GH are watering down the music game industry, both in music selection and actual gameplay. I'd like more selection than "popular bands of the 80s" and "top 40 hits from 1999 on". I can go listen to the radio for these songs...
I'm a IIDX player, and I sat down with Rockband's lead guitar for the first time ever and beat "Hand That Feeds" on Expert. It's pretty low quality in terms of requiring dedication and skill, at least in comparison to Konami's games... Maybe this lawsuit will force some creativity into Harmonix.
Posted by eddie - Fri 07/11 2008 - 09:59 AM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by TougaKiryuu
according to the patent, couldn't they sue redoctane and activision over guitar hero since the konami patent goes into detail about the guitar?
For the 8 billionth time, Activision pays Konami licensing fees for Guitar Hero. They likely jumped on doing that when the ITG lawsuit started, as RedOctane had involvement with ITG and knew exactly how hard Konami's legal hammer can hit.
Yay Konami! Thank you for defending your IP. I hope you sue the bejesus out of everyone that stole your ideas.
I think that konami is just trying to mow down the competition. Whether rock band dies or doesn't, we the fans will probably get screwed either way. With the way ddr is to itg, i don't really think there would be much to look forward to in rock revolution, so basically what they're trying to do is make it so there is no alternative to it, so if we want to play a game like this, rock revolution is the only way to go. It's pretty much the same thing as itg. It only happens to the games that are more successful than konami's. The point is that after it all, we end up playing only lame-ass songs that don't sound cool at all while remembering the good old days when there was an alternative to konami crap. Thanks, konami! I HOPE YOU BURN IN HELL FOR ALL YOUR DAMN CORPORATE GREED! sorry for the really long rant but u get my point
You do all realize that its probably not the people making our beloved games that are pulling all this crap. Its Konami corporate, who probably doesn't give a crap about its music game department and probably gives it minimal funding expecting them to pretty much release the same crap every year.
Also, ITG was in NO way more successful than DDR. Its console release sold next to nothing and the arcade version was only successful because of the price, not because of the features. Sure, it was a better game, but like I said, in no way successful. I also bet that if the music games got more money from the corporate mothership arcade releases would be cheaper (in addition to being of way better quality).
Also, its more of a gray area in America where no GF/DM has been released, but as soon as RB planning on releasing in Japan they blatantly broke copyright laws, pretty much releasing a different version of GF/DM in a country where GF/DM is actually being released.
And remember that the only reason these patents exist is because of the peripherals. That's why other genres of video games haven't had these kind of problems. But the guitar, the drums, the dance pad--all of that jazz is A CONTROLLER, and you know that if all of the sudden Sony released a remote-shaped motion-based controller with attachable peripherals that Nintendo would be all up on their back.
Posted by Alex - Fri 07/11 2008 - 10:58 AM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkld18
I'm a IIDX player, and I sat down with Rockband's lead guitar for the first time ever and beat "Hand That Feeds" on Expert. It's pretty low quality in terms of requiring dedication and skill, at least in comparison to Konami's games... Maybe this lawsuit will force some creativity into Harmonix.
The problem is, Harmonix IS being creative and original. They're making a music game for people who enjoy playing music. Rock Band is, for the most part, not INTENDED to be unbelievably difficult, it's intended to be similar to jamming out with a real band, only doable for the average person.
The mainstream US audience doesn't want a game filled with music they've never heard of, which taking that as it is, Harmonix has done a fantastic job of taking that major marketing constraint and making a game that doesn't suck.
Also keep in mind you're judging an entire game with now over 200 songs, each with four playable instruments. So you've judged the entire game's difficulty by seeing under 0.00125% of the Expert charts made for the game, and while playing by yourself. And you picked a fairly easy song.
Just some food for thought. :P
Posted by Reenee - Fri 07/11 2008 - 11:26 AM [ quote ]
Quote:
Rock Band is, for the most part, not INTENDED to be unbelievably difficult, it's intended to be similar to jamming out with a real band, only doable for the average person.
I want whoever invented the drums and guitar a long long time ago to come back from the dead and sue Konami for infringement. Give them a taste of their own medicine. I get so tired of seeing companies pulling shit like this purely out of greed. It's not like Rock Band, or ITG, or whatever is giving their product a bad name. No, it's the fact that it's either better, or does something different, and it's going to take some revenue away from Konami whether they like it or not, and they don't have a God-given right to all of the profit from music games. The fact that they discontinued ITG is proof that they either don't know what they're doing with DDR or else don't give a damn about players who like to have custom song ability + the various ITG mods.
I'm a IIDX player, and I sat down with Rockband's lead guitar for the first time ever and beat "Hand That Feeds" on Expert. It's pretty low quality in terms of requiring dedication and skill, at least in comparison to Konami's games... Maybe this lawsuit will force some creativity into Harmonix.
The problem is, Harmonix IS being creative and original. They're making a music game for people who enjoy playing music. Rock Band is, for the most part, not INTENDED to be unbelievably difficult, it's intended to be similar to jamming out with a real band, only doable for the average person.
The mainstream US audience doesn't want a game filled with music they've never heard of, which taking that as it is, Harmonix has done a fantastic job of taking that major marketing constraint and making a game that doesn't suck.
Also keep in mind you're judging an entire game with now over 200 songs, each with four playable instruments. So you've judged the entire game's difficulty by seeing under 0.00125% of the Expert charts made for the game, and while playing by yourself. And you picked a fairly easy song.
Just some food for thought. :P
I wouldn't call ripping off several Konami games creative...
I am fully aware of the songlist in the series, and it is EXTREMELY limited in variety as a whole. There's nothing wrong with being easy to play, and accessible to anyone, but maybe if it's for people who simply enjoy "playing music" as you say, players should pick up a REAL guitar...? IIDX and GF&DM hardly fool their players into thinking they could play a real instrument and instead, embrace their nature as GAMES, with an incredible room for improvement thanks to long learning curves. You can only get so inventive with licensed top 40s and giving everyone a Gold Star for "having fun"...
National Guitar Hero champion David Briers said in EGM August 07: "I didn't like the learning curve on Beatmania. I've seen the top Beatmania players and it makes mine and my friends videos look mundane by comparison..."
Also at Shalori and everyone else: IF YOU MAKE A PATENT YOU HAVE TO DEFEND IT. IF YOU DO NOT DEFEND IT, YOU LOSE THE PATENT. EVEN IF KONAMI DID NOT WANT TO SUE OVER PEOPLE INFRINGING ON IT, THEY ARE LEGALLY OBLIGATED TO
There's nothing wrong with being easy to play, and accessible to anyone, but maybe if it's for people who simply enjoy "playing music" as you say, players should pick up a REAL guitar...?
Not this again
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Originally Posted by bkld18
IIDX and GF&DM hardly fool their players into thinking they could play a real instrument and instead, embrace their nature as GAMES, with an incredible room for improvement thanks to long learning curves.
So then Rock Band is not for you. From the sound of it, you don't necessarily want creativity from Harmonix, you want "HOLY F*CKING SHIT". IIRC, Rock Band was made to introduce people into the Music/Rhythm genre, so giving newbies that level of difficulty, and the learning curve you want would turn them away. Not what they were aiming to do.
About the news post though...It seems as though whenever I get into a new Music/Rhythm series, Konami comes along and goes...well you know
Posted by Alex - Fri 07/11 2008 - 01:31 PM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkld18
I wouldn't call ripping off several Konami games creative...
By this logic, any game about dancing is ripping off DDR (Or Bust-A-Move). Any game about guitar playing is ripping off UmJammer Lammy. Get On Da Mic ripped off Parappa. Any game about killing Nazis? Ripped off Wolfenstein. And Harmonix developed Karaoke Revolution and licensed it to Konami so that's hardly a ripoff there.
The concept of "playing rock music" pretty much means drums, guitar, bass, vocals. It'd be kind of hard to come up with a way to do that other than "play on plastic instruments that look like said real instruments". Aside from conceptually, Rock Band plays completely different than GF/DM when you take into account five buttons, lack of timing judgment, whammy (for guitar), star power/overdrive, and especially hammer-ons and pull-offs. It's entirely possible to enjoy both without believing they're the same game, and it's hard to say they're exactly alike.
Rock Band fills a market that GF/DM doesn't touch and vice-versa. They're both guitar and drum games, but they play as differently as Super Mario Bros. and Castlevania. I don't get why that's so hard for people to understand.
The patenting issue here is Konami has basically patented the genre, and this may very well serve as a legally binding test for the validity of that patent.
Also at Shalori and everyone else: IF YOU MAKE A PATENT YOU HAVE TO DEFEND IT. IF YOU DO NOT DEFEND IT, YOU LOSE THE PATENT. EVEN IF KONAMI DID NOT WANT TO SUE OVER PEOPLE INFRINGING ON IT, THEY ARE LEGALLY OBLIGATED TO
DDR has made a big turnaround in Japan. Once again the AC releases and JPN releases are what you need to buy if you want your classic unamericanized DDR.
The CS version sell as bad as any other DDR game since 3rd mix. What "big turnaround" is this?
Not to mention Supernova 1 and 2 were awful DDR games compared to the days of 3rd-Extreme. Bland steps, bland/illogical Bemani crossovers (Dragon Blade, Blind Justice, Hunting for You, Fire, Driving, Mars War Jet 3), horribly stepped boss songs (Chaos, Unreal, Fascination MaxX), and some of the worst licenses in any DDR game in any region ever (Boys II Men, Sheena Easton, avex trax J-POP). The series has been going nothing but downhill since Konami Digital Entertainment took the franchise over from KCET.
I want whoever invented the drums and guitar a long long time ago to come back from the dead and sue Konami for infringement. Give them a taste of their own medicine. I get so tired of seeing companies pulling shit like this purely out of greed. It's not like Rock Band, or ITG, or whatever is giving their product a bad name. No, it's the fact that it's either better, or does something different, and it's going to take some revenue away from Konami whether they like it or not, and they don't have a God-given right to all of the profit from music games. The fact that they discontinued ITG is proof that they either don't know what they're doing with DDR or else don't give a damn about players who like to have custom song ability + the various ITG mods.
Think about what you say before you say it. Rock Band is a great game, but it is NOT creative in the slightest outside of the graphics it employs and the way that it scores, used online features, etc. Rock Band is a rip-off and Konami has the right to sue whether the product is better or not. Also, notice that Konami has only sued in cases where talk of exporting to Japan is a possibility. Am I the only person the remembers talk of ITG in Japan in the future, and RB was slated to be released there. Konami has to protect its product.
Also, they discontinued ITG because no company would ever release a product that they acquired in a lawsuit. However, notice that they have started to use elements of DDR in new releases. And try looking at the newest annoucement--yeah, DDR X. It looks like this is the mix we've been waiting for.
Also, notice that while Konami's US versions often suck, they're IIDX and GF/DM franchises are still strong in Japan, as is DDR (at least, stronger than in America). They're practices are going to be to protect that, and even though we may not see those releases, that doesn't mean that they shouldn't defend them.
Harmonix/MTV/EA will win, and all the bemani fanboys will cry like they lost their mothers.To hell with Konami and their tactics made of Fail.
HAHAHA OH LOLZ.I love how Rockband fan boys gets mad.
I play whatever the hell I like, regardless of who made it, unlike most of those ejaculating over the news of this retardation by Konami. I've played IIDX and DDR, and I like them, but that does not prevent me, once again, unlike said people, of enjoying music rythm games from other companies.
I wish Konami had brought GF/DM over both for arcades and CS, but they thought it was a bad idea.. so when others actually put the concept of guitar/drum simulation into practice, they have to feel so bitter of their success not only to sue, but to make Rock Revolution (or should I say, Rock Band Revolution?) as a legal excuse more than an actual game that players will enjoy? Rock Revolution is NOT GF/DM, and everybody here knows it. In the end it will, and with all justification, be known by everybody as the "Rock Band Rip-off". We all as players lose from this.
And what gives, yyr? I thought you were better than that.
Better than what?
I don't feel that Konami shouldn't ever try to defend what it feels is their intellectual property. What I would like is for Konami to defend their property in such a way that doesn't repeatedly kick the other companies AND the fanbase in the nuts.
I bet they never even contacted any of the parties to try to negotiate before they went ahead and dropped the bomb. And why didn't they do anything last year? Aren't there any Konami employees that pay attention to the industry? It seems like they calculated it this way on purpose...wait until right before a big release and then kick them in the nuts. That's exactly how it went with ITG too.
Most of flames here just looks like a bunch of cry babys...
GOD DAMMIT! READ OTHER PEOPLE POSTS NOT THE ONLY ONE WHICH ARE TELLING YOU HOW STUPID YOU ARE BECAUSE YOU LIKE X or Y GAME (<<<<------- lol)
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Originally Posted by ranatalus
Also at Shalori and everyone else: IF YOU MAKE A PATENT YOU HAVE TO DEFEND IT. IF YOU DO NOT DEFEND IT, YOU LOSE THE PATENT. EVEN IF KONAMI DID NOT WANT TO SUE OVER PEOPLE INFRINGING ON IT, THEY ARE LEGALLY OBLIGATED TO
Quote:
Originally Posted by ranatalus
Also at Shalori and everyone else: IF YOU MAKE A PATENT YOU HAVE TO DEFEND IT. IF YOU DO NOT DEFEND IT, YOU LOSE THE PATENT. EVEN IF KONAMI DID NOT WANT TO SUE OVER PEOPLE INFRINGING ON IT, THEY ARE LEGALLY OBLIGATED TO
Not to downplay Konami's size, but as of the latest financial statements (March 07 for Konami, Dec 07 for Viacom) Viacom held something like 10 times the assets Konami did (and approximately 4 times the current assets Konami has). They're a Fortune 500 company.
I'm not saying Konami can't win against Viacom, but it's still a David vs Goliath situation. In any case, it's just potential - Viacom might not be willing to try to out-cash Konami. But I think that it's fairly obvious who has more at stake in this lawsuit.
I kind of expect a settlement because Rock Band is a big enough thing that Viacom probably doesn't want to lose it and Konami in all honesty would probably benefit more from a cash settlement and/or a slice of the pie in the future than less competition for Rock Revolution.
As a side note it's rather ironic that all the people who hated rock band so much that they filtered its news out can't see the one news post that would make their day.
Think about what you say before you say it. Rock Band is a great game, but it is NOT creative in the slightest outside of the graphics it employs and the way that it scores, used online features, etc. Rock Band is a rip-off and Konami has the right to sue whether the product is better or not.
If you mean the original idea of drums, guitar, or microphone, then you'd be right.
However, mashing them all together into one hugely successful game? That's a pretty damn creative idea for making truckloads of money, MONEY THAT KONAMI MISSED OUT ON IN THE US MARKET BY DELAYING THE RELEASE OF A ROCK-ORIENTED RHYTHM GAME FOR THIS LONG. That's NO ONE'S fault but Konami's. I can understand them wanting to defend their patent, but that's probably not all that's driving this lawsuit.
I dunno, it's kind of funny how some people are making pretty outrageous assumptions of why Konami sued and how others will furiously "never buy Konami products again." Well, I'm sure Konami's really sad and will miss your business. It's like a schmuck that comes into a popular retail chain with their own predispositions on how they should be treated and when they don't get what they want, leave the store and tells the cashier "well, I'm never shopping here again!" like it really really matters to the entire retail world. OK, so you're not happy, but I think "fcuk Konami" is plenty enough.
Anyway, my two cents, while I do feel the situation sucks since I actually enjoy Rock Band, if you were really in Konami's shoes, what would you think? Especially since RB is trying to break into Japan's shores, if someone else utilizes the technology in a redesigned product that you created, REGARDLESS of how much better or worse it is, what would you think?
I mean, do you honestly think Konami's suing because they're afraid of RB doing better? Whether or not they are, pretend it does. Someone's still making bank off of a product you designed and technology you're still using currently. And allowing it to happen without a fight would still make Konami look bad. Competition isn't bad, but if you do it without thinking of a different approach (and sorry, but simply adding a mic isn't a different approach), it just doesn't look good.
Quote:
I don't feel that Konami shouldn't ever try to defend what it feels is their intellectual property. What I would like is for Konami to defend their property in such a way that doesn't repeatedly kick the other companies AND the fanbase in the nuts.
I bet they never even contacted any of the parties to try to negotiate before they went ahead and dropped the bomb. And why didn't they do anything last year? Aren't there any Konami employees that pay attention to the industry? It seems like they calculated it this way on purpose...wait until right before a big release and then kick them in the nuts. That's exactly how it went with ITG too.
You make it sound like the majority of the community was hurt with the ITG lawsuit. It did anything but bring the WORST of the DDR and primarily the ITG community. Most hardcore ITG loyalists stopped playing or nearly stopped playing DDR anyway, so if anything, it more hurt them.
And some posts (if you read quite a bit higher) already speculated that this is coming relatively soon after RB Japan was announced. I personally don't think really don't think it's RB 2 that's necessarily causing the big stink.
Additionally, I think the lawsuit does call a strongarm, but it's one viable result of the case. They can always just settle out of court, which again as stated above, can be another. One result in the ITG case was that ITG was barred. Another result of another lawsuit for PIU was royalties. It can swing either way.
*edit*
Quote:
However, mashing them all together into one hugely successful game? That's a pretty damn creative idea for making truckloads of money, MONEY THAT KONAMI MISSED OUT ON IN THE US MARKET BY DELAYING THE RELEASE OF A ROCK-ORIENTED RHYTHM GAME FOR THIS LONG. That's NO ONE'S fault but Konami's. I can understand them wanting to defend their patent, but that's probably not all that's driving this lawsuit.
From people that have done at least the drums before, try tearing one apart. Guitar I believe also works the same way the GFdm guitar/drums work.
Read the detailed descriptions of the patent that Konami owns. If it is over the technology and idea, then Konami DOES have the right to defend it. And you're going to fault Konami over that?
I didn't fault Konami over that. I said it's Konami's fault that they didn't get their product to the US before someone else did with their own version of it, and thus lost all but a slim chance of breaking into the US market with theirs.
Posted by ocyl - Sat 07/12 2008 - 12:28 AM [ quote ]
MTV has blocked Konami from entering the North American market in a timely fashion by using its "drum simulation game" patents and threats to litigate. The patents cited in this case are related to guitar controllers used in games.
Posted by ceraf - Sat 07/12 2008 - 12:52 AM [ quote ]
konami just wants to make it make money again.
I really don't know who to side with this. I'm just hoping i don't see a "Konami acquires IP rights to rock band" news headline.
Posted by Sexy - Sat 07/12 2008 - 01:25 AM [ quote ]
Does this mean Rock Band's moving to PIU as well?!?!
Posted by Alex - Sat 07/12 2008 - 01:57 AM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by braintrust (joel stud?)
Think about what you say before you say it. Rock Band is a great game, but it is NOT creative in the slightest outside of the graphics it employs and the way that it scores, used online features, etc. Rock Band is a rip-off and Konami has the right to sue whether the product is better or not. Also, notice that Konami has only sued in cases where talk of exporting to Japan is a possibility. Am I the only person the remembers talk of ITG in Japan in the future, and RB was slated to be released there. Konami has to protect its product.
Yeah outside of the gameplay, programming, art assets, song selection, game focus, marketing strategy, chartmaking, community building, and peripheral design, there is NO CREATIVITY involved with Rock Band!
I seriously don't think you know what creative means. 95% of the art world is taking an existing idea and making it your own in some way. That's how MOST creative industries work, in fact. Calling something uncreative because it shares a common concept as something else is just stupid. Hate to bring other video games, but it's like saying Kirby is uncreative because Kid Chameleon beat them to the punch when it comes to a platformer with interchangable abilities.
Posted by ChaoTime - Sat 07/12 2008 - 03:51 AM [ quote ]
Finally. Rock Band is a horrible when lined up with GF/DM and doesn't really deserve all the praise it gets. It's a ripoff with a weak song selection and horrible (When lined up with GF/DM) gameplay. GF/DM came about 9 years ago and did it much better. Rock band just took GF/DM and downgraded it.
It's really Konami's/Bemani's game, so they can do what they want with it.
Also, screw Rock Revolution which the ripoff of the ripoff of GF/DM. Even though Konami, maker of the awesome music games is publishing it, Rock Revolution seems to be made of fail in terms of song selection and gameplay (Looks just like Rock Band/GH).
Posted by Paradox0 - Sat 07/12 2008 - 08:30 AM [ quote ]
I'm actually a little surprised here. I thought that harmonix did something to have the right to use the patent (I forget the legal mumbo jumbo), and that the drum set is a patentented from MTV (which owns the patent for those in the US I believe). However, I'm not sure about the mic (Konami probably owns that in the US). I'm guessing the problem might be linked to making rock band, and the patent using rights did not carry over to any of harmonix's other projects.
As a side note it's rather ironic that all the people who hated rock band so much that they filtered its news out can't see the one news post that would make their day.
Uh... no. However, since I generally have no clue over US patent laws, I don't have much to say on this issue. As much as I HATE Guitar Hero and Rock Band with a passion (for the reasons that most of the people here have stated), I cannot deny that it brought this kind of music gaming to a more casual audience. Of course, Konami should defend its patents, but I think the reason it took them a while was not because of 'idiocy', but the fact that cases have to be built up somehow; ideally, you can't just sue someone just for the heck of it.
The only thing I am hoping for in this suit is a case similar to the 'v. Andamiro' case, which appears to have been somewht okay for both sides.
Posted by karvelot - Sat 07/12 2008 - 04:40 PM [ quote ]
After what Viacom did to Youtube users like me .cough. user privacy .cough., I show absolutely no sympathy.
Posted by ACID HAUS - Sat 07/12 2008 - 06:32 PM [ quote ]
Quote:
Originally Posted by yyr
That's it. They've finally crossed the line with me.
When Sierra cancelled Half-Life for Dreamcast AFTER IT WAS ALREADY FINISHED, I vowed never to buy a Sierra game again. I mistakenly bought weeabooweeabooweeabooo
Long live the day gamers start caring more about gaming politics than real politics.
Oh wa-
Posted by toltec666 - Sun 07/13 2008 - 05:51 PM [ quote ]
stupid stupid shit, I'm about to say screw ddr forever. thanks konami
Posted by onedisk - Sun 07/13 2008 - 06:24 PM [ quote ]
I have a feeling that this lawsuit came up because of the possible release of Rock Band in Japan which probably infringes on some patent about guitar controllers in Japan. I hpoe the lawsuit will only result in Harmonix paying royalties to Konami, just like with Activision and Andamiro. Then again I do like rock band but personally, it is too overhyped, anyways. (Besides Viacom should be sued after that incident with Youtube) I think Rock Revolution is not a good idea, as well but at least only Konami is distributing it.
Finally. Rock Band is a horrible when lined up with GF/DM and doesn't really deserve all the praise it gets. It's a ripoff with a weak song selection and horrible (When lined up with GF/DM) gameplay. GF/DM came about 9 years ago and did it much better. Rock band just took GF/DM and downgraded it.
It's really Konami's/Bemani's game, so they can do what they want with it.
Also, screw Rock Revolution which the ripoff of the ripoff of GF/DM. Even though Konami, maker of the awesome music games is publishing it, Rock Revolution seems to be made of fail in terms of song selection and gameplay (Looks just like Rock Band/GH).
Stick to your niche game then, and quit bashing a game that some people actually have fun with. We don't bash GF/DM, don't bash GH/RB.
So many people in this thread need a serious reality check. While everyone is beating their chests over their favorite game, consider this. Activision pays Konami royalties for the aspects of Guitar Hero that overlap with Konami's patents and intellectual properties. EA/Viacom apparently doesn't. Is it somehow fair that Activision has to pay royalties to use patents and ideas for Guitar Hero while EA/Viacom does NOT have to pay for the use of those same properties in Rock Band?
This is going to be over before anyone knows it. EA/Viacom smartens up and settles out of court, paying Konami their dues, and both Rock Band 2 and Rock Revolution are released as scheduled.
